• dosuser123456@lemmy.sdf.org
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    4 days ago

    basic is like toki pona then i guess, like python but even easeier

    no wait, that ones gray snail (minimalist vocabulary: it has only 4 commands)

  • CanadaPlus@lemmy.sdf.org
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    2 months ago

    Гарантийный без ошибка памяти!

    I unironically think it would be hilarious to write a borrow checker for Адрес.

      • CanadaPlus@lemmy.sdf.org
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        2 months ago

        Not surprised. The Russian Wikipedia page on it is just a stub. The English one is actually longer.

        I can’t find any online introductions to it or compilers for it either, in English or написал по-Русски. Or Ukrainian for that matter, assuming I’d know it if I see it, although the Wikipedia page is longer.

    • CheesyFox@lemmy.sdf.org
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      2 months ago

      the thing with russian is that it’s not spoken only by russians. Russian-speaking part of the internet is quite large actually.

    • Dessalines@lemmy.mlOP
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      2 months ago

      I was tempted to say Ruby, but based on my friends that are learning (or tried to learn Japanese), it seems like Ruby is trying to be the opposite. So not sure.

      Ruby would maybe fit with toki pona : terse, simple, predictable.

      • Match!!@pawb.social
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        2 months ago

        as someone with some knowledge of japanese, japanese is extraordinarily terse, simple, and predictable. anyone who’s seen some anime should be familiar with this - there’s an incredible number of set phrases that carry a conversation in a precise way (that minimizes surprise)

      • SkunkWorkz@lemmy.world
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        2 months ago

        Ruby is literally Japanese. It was invented there. Plus a Danish guy popularized it outside of Japan. Like how weebs spurred interest in Japan and the Japanese language outside Japan.

      • MBM@lemmings.world
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        2 months ago

        I was going to say toki pona is not quite brainfuck but at least somewhere in that direction, with its tiny vocab

      • PlexSheep@infosec.pub
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        2 months ago

        The something else is called kanji, and are very complicated characters stolen from China with many meanings and pronunciation. Learning Japanese is very 楽しい (it is really)

  • MudMan@fedia.io
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    2 months ago

    I think this thread is meant to flatter programmers and make linguists and sociologists extremely angry.

    • lugal@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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      2 months ago

      How so? Except the first sentence which is obviously not serious, I would agree with all linguistic statements or at least not disagree with any.

      • randomname01@feddit.nl
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        2 months ago

        For one, Latin has more fancy rules than French. I guess the subjunctive is probably something English speakers might consider fancy, but Latin has that too. Latin has more times that are conjugations of the core verb (rather than needing auxiliary verbs), has grammatical cases (like German, but two more if you include vocative) and, idk, also just feels fancier in general.

        I’ll admit it’s been years since I actually read any Latin and that I only have a surface level understanding of all languages mentioned except for French, but this post reads like it’s about the stereotypes of the countries rather than being about the languages themselves.

        • lugal@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          2 months ago

          First, I wouldn’t count the vocative but let’s not get into this debate. Counting cases, Russian wins until you include other balto slavic languages or even Uralic ones.

          Fancy is a very subjective term. Auxiliary verbs are fancy in their own way. From an orthographical viewpoint, French is quite fancy with all the silent letters, the way vocals are pronounced and stuff. French had like one spelling “reform” and it was like let’s make it more obvious we decent from Latin. Grammar wise it’s just like the other romance languages from what I know. They once got rid of the silent <s> and put a “gravestone” on the letter before (^) that has no other meaning than here was a silent s. Wouldn’t you call that fancy? Who would call it fancy? Mwa Moi!

          • Dewe@lemmy.world
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            2 months ago

            Haha I decline your proposal not to get into that debate: the vocative is a grammatical case. Maybe not every noun can be put in the vocative, but it’s definitely one of the cases. Even the locative is a case, even though only a couple of nouns use it.

            • lugal@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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              2 months ago

              To be clear, in general the vocative is a case eg in Czech and other balto slavic languages (except eg standard Russian while colloquial Russian is developing a new unrelated one).

              In Latin tho, it’s more a relict. Other cases have relicts, too, still I wouldn’t say Latin has the locative.

              I would argue that being a relict is a spectrum. Technically, it is a case with many syncretism to nominative, since it is obligatory for those nouns. In the context of LAtiN hAs sOo0 ManY cAsES, it’s not.

          • randomname01@feddit.nl
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            2 months ago

            Meh, as a native Dutch speaker auxiliary verbs feel really utilitarian to me, and not particularly fancy - like you said, that’s highly subjective.

            As for cases, I didn’t say Latin or German had the most, but just that I think they’re fancy and that Latin has them while French doesn’t.

            • lugal@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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              2 months ago

              So you speak a V2 language like me? I’m German btw. Let me give you an outside perspective on auxiliary verbs in continental western Germanic languages:

              The verb comes in second position (hence V2). Using an auxiliary verb moves the content verb to the very end of the sentence. It totally messes with the syntax.

              But that’s besides my point. My point wasn’t that French auxiliary verbs are fancy but that fancy can me many things, in French it’s the spelling and pronunciation. Cases aren’t fancy, at least not the German or Latin ones. The slavic cases are a different story, in my objective opinion.

        • agamemnonymous@sh.itjust.works
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          2 months ago

          Latin has more rules, but they’re more utilitarian than fancy. Latin rules are there to make sure you understand exactly what is being said. French rules are there to make everything elegant and confusing, like high fashion.

      • TranscendentalEmpire@lemm.ee
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        2 months ago

        I think the first sentence is probably enough to make anyone not afflicted with a eurocentric brain want to palm some face.

        I think excusing it as a “not serious” statement is dangerous, as a lot of people even on Lemmy won’t second guess it.

        The belief that the west is the origin of all science and culture is surprisingly pervasive, especially in the tech industry.

        • lugal@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          2 months ago

          I don’t disagree but I would still give the benefit of a doubt that “the whole universe” is such an exaggeration that it makes the overstatement obvious. But it would also be read as a praise. Overall, I wouldn’t take it all to seriously. Made me laugh but I also see the eurocentrism and it’s good to be aware of it.

        • MudMan@fedia.io
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          2 months ago

          “The root of all modern languages” is a heck of a thing to say about Latin, and I’m pretty sure several billion people haven’t quite gotten that memo. Calling a chunk of Europe and a thin slice of Africa “the entire Universe” is also a spicy take. Come for the programmer humor, recoil in disgust for the rampant ethnocentrism, I guess.

      • MudMan@fedia.io
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        2 months ago

        I mean, French is vulgar Latin at best. And even if it wasn’t obviously spoken by all sorts of French people, elites or not, it’s also the official language of a bunch of other countries, from Monaco to Niger. “Elites and certain circles” is a very weird read, which I’m guessing is based on US stereotypes on the French? I don’t even think the British would commit to associating the French with elitism.

        Russian speakers being “mostly autoritarian left” is also… kind of a lot to assume? I’m not even getting into that one further. I don’t know if the Esperanto one checks out, either. “Esperanto speaker” is the type of group, and this is true, whose wikipedia page doesn’t include statistics but instead just a list of names. Which is hilarious, but maybe not a great Python analogue. It may still be the best pairing there, because to my knowledge English speakers aren’t any worse at speaking English than the speakers of any other language. They are more monolingual, though.

        It just all sounds extremely anglocentric to me, which is what it is, I suppose, but it really messes with the joke if you’re joking about languages specifically. One could do better with this concept, I think.

        • lugal@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          2 months ago

          I think the elitism regards of French isn’t about French native speakers but about second language learners. French was the lingua franca in Europe for quite a while and using French loan words makes you sound more fancy and eloquent in many languages (compare “adult” with “grownup” which is a Latin loan word but I can’t think of a real example so I hope no one will notice).

          The Russian bit I totally agree. Esperanto vs python is quite a leap, I agree. Showing a list (that’s probably not conclusive but still) is telling when compared to the go to beginners programming language. Still there are parallels in the design and intention. No comparison is ever perfect.

          All in all it’s not perfect but as a joke, it works for me. Sure, it’s not unbiased but if not taken too seriously, I can laugh about it, and I can over analyze it for fun so win win for me.

          • randomname01@feddit.nl
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            2 months ago

            It’s kinda funny, I’m Flemish and a lot of French loan words (ambriage, merci, nondedju = nom de dieu to name a few) are mainly used in dialect, and therefore don’t make you sounds sophisticated or worldly at all.

            • lugal@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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              2 months ago

              From what I know it’s similar in Swiss German (with words like merci and velo (bike)). I don’t know about Fleming but Swiss embraces their dialects so it isn’t stigmatized either

              • randomname01@feddit.nl
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                2 months ago

                Heh, we use velo as well. And yeah, we don’t really stigmatise dialects that much either, though depending on how much dialect you use people might find it unprofessional.

          • MudMan@fedia.io
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            2 months ago

            Yeah, but that’s my point. The author clearly isn’t thinking about the hundreds of millions of native French speakers around the world, they’re an American thinking the word “mutton” sounds fancier than “sheep”… in English.

            Which yeah, okay, that’s their cultural upbringing causing that, but then maybe don’t make a joke entirely predicated on making sharp observations about how languages work and aimed specifically at nerds. I can only ever go “it’s funny because it’s true” or be extremely judgmental of your incorrect assumptions about how languages work here.

            • lugal@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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              2 months ago

              your incorrect assumptions

              Why make it about me? I was more or less playing devil’s advocate, saying if not taken seriously it’s funny.

              I would be more likely to agree with you if you put “OP’s assumption”. Your phrasing makes me want to double down on my original position.

              That’s just a general recommendation for discussions in general, online and offline. I learned a thing or two about my biases and perspectives here. Btw I’m German and that part resonated with me from my little experience with JAVA and my experience in learning about my native language and teaching it to others.

              • MudMan@fedia.io
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                2 months ago

                Oh, sorry, you misunderstood, I didn’t mean you specifically, I mean you as in “why would you ever do this”, as in “why would anybody ever do this”.

                Languages, as we’ve established, are complicated.

        • Wiz@midwest.social
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          2 months ago

          About Esperanto, since it’s not a national language (intentionally so) it’s hard to do a census of speakers.

          Also, to what level is considered “speaking Esperanto”? Taking the Duolingo course? Having it as a “mother tongue” where both parents speak it in a household in order to communicate? These are both probably countable, and produce wildly different numbers.

          • MudMan@fedia.io
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            2 months ago

            I’ll be honest, I don’t think that’s the reason. I also think those numbers may be different but they may both be indistinguishable from zero when plotted against natural languages. You’re right about it being hard to define what counts as a “Esperanto speaker”. I can’t decide if that makes the Python comparison better or worse, though.

            • Wiz@midwest.social
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              2 months ago

              Yeah, I do not think Python is a very good comparison.

              I was thinking more like Clojure:

              1. Enthusiastic and friendly geeks trying to push their language on the world trying to make it a better place. They are both definitely not a little cultish!
              2. Language intended to be simple to learn with a limited and regular vocabulary, but can handle complicated work with ease.
              3. They both say that learning their language will make your mind better able to do other languages.
              4. A bridge between languages. Vanilla Clojure runs on the JVM and can invoke Java commands. But it has also been built on other platforms like JavaScript (ClojureScript), .NET (CLR), Python (Basilisp), BASH (Babashka), and others I think.
              5. The parts of both languages can be broken up, mixed, and matched, and used for other parts. In Esperanto, the fundamental elements can be broken down and made into other words. In Clojure, you’ve got functions and lists - and higher order functions that work on functions and lists, and lists of functions, and functions of lists.
              6. Did I mention: Friendly & welcoming geeks that lo-o-o-ove newbies! Seriously, both Clojure nerds and Esperanto nerds are unnaturally nice and would like to welcome you to the club. They’ve got tons of free resources for you to learn it.

              Honestly, I think both are right. Both are simple languages that expand your way of thinking, and are probably both worth learning, if you’re into that sort of thing.

    • finitebanjo@lemmy.world
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      2 months ago

      IDK, comparing Javascript to English while Java to German seems to either overblow the value of javascript or diminish the value of English.

      • Ziglin@lemmy.world
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        1 month ago

        Yeah German isn’t nearly as bad as Java either. Also what is asm? Phoenetic script?

    • TexasDrunk@lemmy.world
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      2 months ago

      It’s just Shatner, isn’t it? Except even he doesn’t really speak it even though he was in a movie that was entirely Esperanto.

  • MajorHavoc@programming.dev
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    2 months ago

    This is great.

    If I could make one change, there’s so many funnier languages that could have been Esperanto. I would have taken a shameless jab at F#, myself.

  • Snot Flickerman@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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    2 months ago

    Literally all of these languages are rooted in English.

    C: printf()

    C++: cout

    JavaScript: document.write() or window.print()

    Java: system.out.println()

    Python: print()

    Rust: print()

    Exactly zero of those reference a language other than English. I’m not even a linguist and this is just silly. It’s literally part of why English is becoming the dominant world language, because if you learn computer programming you basically have to learn English.

  • Codex@lemmy.world
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    2 months ago

    I guess assembler is sumerien then, only still written and understood? And cobol or fortran? Linear a and b?

  • Mad_Punda@feddit.org
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    2 months ago

    I suspect there’s more people who speak Python fluently than Esperanto. So that comparison sits very wrong with me. The rest was funny :)

    • Esperanto always struck me as more perl-like with each part of speech having its own suffix like perl has $ for scalars, @ for arrays, and % for hashes. Though perl is probably more like a bunch of pidgins…

      • umbraroze@lemmy.world
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        2 months ago

        Yeah, I was about to say.

        Perl 5 is like Esperanto: borrowed neat features from many languages, somehow kinda vaguely making a bit of sense. Enjoyed some popularity back in the day but is kind of niche nowadays.

        PHP is like Volapük: same deal, but without the linguistic competence and failing miserably at being consistent.

        Raku (Perl 6) is like Esperanto reformation efforts: Noble and interesting scholarly pursuits, with dozens of fans around the multiverse.

    • where_am_i@sh.itjust.works
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      2 months ago

      Esperanto’s equivalent would probably be Haskell.

      Python is probably more like Spanish. Very easy basics, but then people from different regions of where it’s has spread out barely understand each other

  • Flipper@feddit.org
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    2 months ago

    I want to disagree on German. It isn’t verbose. We’ve got several words where there isn’t an equivalent in pretty much any other languages. Including Schadenfreude und Torschlusspanik (the feeling that you are getting older l, can’t find a partner and will die alone).

    The same EU legal text has in German 22.118 words Vs English 24.698.

    The making me cry part, that’s fair. Overcomplicated, could be worse.

    • BatmanAoD@programming.dev
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      2 months ago

      I wonder what the best programming analogue is for combining words into one where other languages keep them separate; maybe the functional-style chains of adapters?

    • kenbw2@lemmy.world
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      2 months ago

      The same EU legal text has in German 22.118 words Vs English 24.698.

      That needs a character count really. Words isn’t a particularly relevant measure when the language uses compound words

    • dirkgentle@lemmy.ca
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      2 months ago

      I think word count is not the best metric precisely because of what you mention. “Krankenversicherungskarte” is one word vs the three word “health insurance card”, but they convey the same information in roughly the same amount of characters.

      Overall I don’t find German particularly verbose, only sometimes a small phrase is condensed into a single word.

      • Lysergid@lemmy.ml
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        2 months ago

        I don’t know german but it seems to be more logical to have one word for “health insurance card” since it describes one class of objects. Better than spelling 3 nouns where one partially describes what object is and other nouns act like clarification

  • OpenStars@discuss.online
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    2 months ago

    Perl is… forgotten entirely, despite its efforts in getting us from there to here.

    Yup, checks out.

    PHP also, but good riddance:-D.

    Shell scripting is the ink that makes up these words - without them, you would never have seen this image.

    • kboy101222@sh.itjust.works
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      2 months ago

      I think Perl is closer to Esperanto - the vast majority of people will never want to learn it and the people that know it won’t stfu about how everyone should use it! And they could all use a shower!

      (I kid… Mostly)

      • OpenStars@discuss.online
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        2 months ago

        You… you shut up! Excuse me, I have to go take a shower:-) (/s)

        Anyway you’re right (no /s) - at one point it filled in a gap between the likes of C++ and Assembly on the one hand and shell scripting (bash, awk, grep, sed, each with its own syntax and very little of that shared in common with one another) and I guess Fortran on the other. I still prefer it enormously to everything else - it’s quirky but fun:-) - though I get why a less experienced person should choose Python and stick with it, even as we all wish that there was another alternative that would work better than either.

        And since I can’t resist: Perl is 8-20x faster than Python, and major websites like DuckDuckGo and booking.com use it. Sigh…I guess it’s time for that shower now:-).

  • schnurrito@discuss.tchncs.de
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    2 months ago

    oddly enough those also correspond approximately to how well I (native German speaker) know each of these languages; but why is there a stereotype that us Python devs and Esperantists need to shower more? :(