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I read “happy ___ starts with ___” as stating that happiness was the eventual result of a process that started with ___.
Yes, like most normal people do.
There’s a lot of discussion when you’re a software dev about the best way to do things, and a lot more is spent on this debate than on actually writing code. One could wonder if there is so much discussion because there are so many good ideas that it’s difficult to choose the one that is optimal for the situation.
But then you read one of these posts on lemmy and you are reminded that someone with internet access and thumbs could spare the short time they have to take a shit to egregiously misunderstand a simple fucking slogan, smugly post about their shit take on the internet, and then return to their job where they will then spend hours misunderstanding the simplest of fucking concepts, slowing down everyone else along with them.
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ever had to rebuild a sprint because Jira failed to properly migrate the old cards over to the new one, but instead throws them all into the backlog randomly and now you have to hunt them down over the next hour?
No, never. Did you maybe not select the ‘move to new sprint’ option when closing the old one?
how about when you’re writing an update to a card and you’re two paragraphs in with log examples and the UI decides to dump your entire content when you accidentally click outside the wysisyg?
That has never happened to me, either.
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I’ve often wondered if Atlassian even uses the products they sell. There’s just so many stupid bugs that I would assume no one at Atlassian would put up with if they had to eat their own dog food. Instead, those bugs don’t seem to get fixed and seem to linger in their products forever.
yeah sure, happy teams start with jira but they end up as angry and sad teams
With Jira everything is an issue
Yeah, we were also once happy.
And then we started using Jira.
RIP
Issue resolved
No defect
Will not fix
Jira teams start with happy*
At least you’re not using Azure Devops boards, Service Now or Basecamp. Those are all worse in my opinion. I miss Jira.
[Actively using Azure Devops and ServiceNow] oh…
Want issues?
Start with Jira
Anyone who pushes jira is a waste of fucking carbon, and I hope they never find happiness.
why would you curse the waste disposal people at the landfill?
“Atlassian - for when you want make your security team really work”
For those complaining about Jira… I used to be one of you. After changing jobs and using several alternatives, I am begging to be back on Jira. Manage Engine is currently the bane of my existence.
ClickUp is A LOT worse than Jira.
I also wonder if people complaining about Jira are still on Jira Server. Jira Cloud is a much nicer experience. Certainly not perfect, but I’ve yet to see an actual viable alternative (once worked someplace that tried to move all project management to Gitlab… 🤮).
Cloud is way worse than server in my experience. Server was only bad because it was usually configured poorly and IT would never give admins to anyone who actually needed it. Cloud is bad because it’s slow as hell and can’t be configured correctly because the ability to configure it correctly has been sitting in “Gathering Interest” on Atlassian’s issue tracker for two years despite thousands of votes and comments.
Jira Server is the on-premise Jira, right?
We had to change to Jira Cloud. (Vendor lock-in, mainly because of time-tracking appendix tools of that.) It’s horrendeous. UI and UX is horrendeous. The DOM is horrendeous. Performance is horrendeous.
My CSS Hacks to fix the UI to a degree I can reasonably work with it are a lot more work now with the generated DOM class and ids. Sometimes they at least have test IDs which can be used.
Some things, like the board component quick filter, are not even available anymore.
The interactivity functionality is irritating and annoying most of the time.
The browser extension we use further fucking up doesn’t help either of course.
Don’t even get me started on Confluence. Which can’t even find pages when I type the exact page title, or ranks them low. And editing tables is a hassle beyond belief now that responsive tables (self-sizing) are gone. It’s wasteful on space too of course, with huge spacing.
I find Linear to be reasonably pleasant.
Same. Or Shortcut. They both are good at being useful but not being your fucking LIFE. Do the important bit and go away.
JIRA is a middle management job creation tool. Which is why it’s everywhere
I worked at a engineering focused contract where we moved all our project management to gitlab and it saved so much time for everyone. Only hard part was collating data up to management in a way they could understand but I was happy to spend a few hours every few months to do that than using jira in any capacity
Haha a PM at my job just tried to move everything to gitlab thankfully someone in charge realized how stupid an idea that was…
Did you ever try Pivotal Tracker? 🤮
That seriously has to be the worst product I have ever used. I don’t understand how it’s still around.
I so agree. My boss likes it and I find it bizarre that anyone pays for that garbage. We are switching to JIRA now due to a decision over his head :)
No, manage Engine and service now are the two big ones I used.
You are lucky. I’ve never used those but I can tell you that PT is a huge piece of shit. The UI is among the worst ever. My go-to example for why I hate it is that you can literally be working on a ticket, reading it or writing in it, and if another coworker does something to it that causes it to move positions in the board or list, the fucking thing will literally disappear from your screen in front of your eyes. It feels like the designers have never used software before.
Oh God. Those are the 2 worst ones. They are mainly used for IT tickets, not for developing software. Jira isn’t the worst, but it does lack basic features. It’s just when companies use Jira you just know you are going to have to deal with a bunch of PMs who all they care about is velocity.
There are so many other simplified alternatives these days. Basecamp is one.
Company started on Asana, individual teams jumped to Jira, company eventually followed. I was always accidentally creating blank tickets in Asana.
Honestly 95% of Jira complaints are because people have crap workflows configured. Out of the box Jira is pretty terrible but it’s very customisable and you need to adjust it to suit your needs - and they have to be your needs and workflows.
That being said, there’s that last 5% that Jira just gets in the way. If anyone has ever had multiple teams working on a single product, Jira is very prescribed about how you’re supposed to structure that and If you don’t, it’s a pain.
I’d suggest that 95% of Jira complaints are actually about corporate culture which is felt most keenly through asshole PMs trying to micromanage you through a ticketing system. It’s mostly a fine piece of software - if you have a certified wizard to configure it it can be great… if you have a dummy it’s going to be barely usable - but you can say the same thing about github issue tracking.
The unfortunate thing is that the teams most likely to use Jira are also the teams I most likely never want to work on.
I can type out the entire 10 word long name of my sprint into the searchbar, and it Jira will pull up 22 pages of things that are not even CLOSE to what I searched. It’s a nightmare to try and find my current sprint among the 65 other team’s sprints every month.
Right, the entire issue is that it basically acts as a massive layer of insulation between reality and bad management. The whole thing is like a fucking paradox - any time you make a change to workflows or procedures there’s this stupid period where you need to “wait for buy in” where it doesn’t matter how outwardly idiotic the change is, you can’t actually call it obviously fucking stupid for like several weeks, or you are seen as being contrarian, or causing trouble. And the real bullshit is that the “better” the tools are, the more this effect is amplified. So as an engineer, I have paradoxically come to appreciate bad management tools simply because when someone does something stupid with them, I can call it out more easily.
We switched to a different tool that’s developed by the same company I work for, and there has been nonstop complaining about it ever since. Jira might not be the best tool, but it’s better than the alternatives by miles.
Also technical shit posting on Confluence is just the best. (I don’t like Atlassian, I just want to go back to Jira)
The issue is more that all of these planning tools enable bad managers to implement bad management practices and workflows without any actual tracking for what constitutes bad management. Almost without fail, every manager I’ve worked with who is very attached to these products ends up using them for the sake of using them. And then when that produces shit results it’s all about “engineering buy in” and “process learning curves” and they end up doing real damage to products before someone notices that Jira actions are not correlated with protective management.
The biggest issue is that good, effective management tools actually end up being a double edged sword because of how they shield bad managers the illusion of legitimacy.
What the? I thought Manage Engine was mainly for MDM. If they crammed an ITSM in there, there’s no way it’s as robust as software that was built for it.
Have you tried ClickUp?
Someone else asked about click up, no I haven’t even heard of it until this thread.
Manage Engine over commits on what it thinks it can do and it does none of them well.
That might very well be the case, however, why are all of these apps so incredibly bad?
Jira especially seems like the definition of feature creep. It’s more bloated than a lactose intolerant child after a tub of ice cream.
That’s the company’s fault for using all the features
Because having more ticked boxes than the competition sells. Doesn’t matter if it’s of any relevance.
Friends don’t let friends use JIRA
“I’m not your friend. By the way, if you don’t use Jira you’re fired.” -Middle Managment
“I hate Jira too. you’re fired”- Senior management.
Seriously though - JIRA isn’t always a massive pain in the ass. It’s just the way it’s used that sucks. Workflow restrictions so devs can’t move tickets from testing back to in progress, dozens of mandatory fields, etc.
When your tools start dictating your workflow rather than the other way around then it’s time to switch tools.
And the metrics, “we see many back and forth between the dev and test” -> devs stops doing it.
Just do a lightweigt process in a few docs and Excel, and meet in person often enough that you know what folks are doing. That’s SOOOO much better and more natural for getting real work done. Great ideas die in JIRA among endless planning meetings and premature decomposition and estimates.
Where happy teams go to die.
JIRA is fine as long as you forego using fucking align. Goddamn fucking align is a the biggest waste of upsell that they catch product managers in ever.
While I don’t like the main Jira software, the Jira Service Management part is actually kind of decent for my needs. It basically allows me to create a help desk for my small business, where they can report issues and I can view them in the Jira app. It’s somewhat limited on the free tier, only allowing 3 agents, but it works plenty fine for my use case.
As for the actual Jira software, I wouldn’t use it, since my workflow needs don’t require it.
Yeah, when you start Jira you’re probably still a happy team
Not for long…
Only ever used Redmine.
We used to use Redmine and it was a fantastic piece of software.
That’s actually reassuring to hear. Aside from Chilli, it’s the only program I’ve ever used (12 years going). I’ve got teamates pushing for changes but jira comes at a high cost. Redmine may look old and I hate that it’s written on ruby, but it’s free and with some plugins it’s been able to suite our needs well.
What’s the issue with Ruby?
I use both Redmine and Jira at work. I don’t know if we’re using an older version but Redmine feels like something from 2001. Even the API for it is unpleasant.
Maybe it’s not changed then because I was using it in the early 2000s. 😀
That’s the point, it’s not flashy but everything loads instantly and you get work done in no time. 2000s style.
I find it an active hindrance to my work. To the point where I have written tools to read data from it via the API rather than use its infuriating interface.
I’m glad it works for you but to me it’s a bit too minimalist. Its user interface is comparable to the forums I was using in 2002. I’d rather something more akin to the ones I was using in 2006.
Fair enough
