If the rumors regarding the performance for the sequel are true, they won’t even have a working game on launch.
I curse the day Agile development graced the PMs working on game studios.
When the term Minimum Viable Product (MVP) was born it was a race to the bottom.
It’s already kinda annoying not to have all the old content but I can see the reasons behind that. But a new game starting from scratch of a genre they are experienced with should have much better performance now that there aren’t all those additional mechanics. Failing at both of these is just an utter disregard to their customers.
“We absolutely cannot have ten years of Cities Skylines 1 content done” for the launch of the sequel, Colossal Order CEO Mariina Hallikainen says in the latest issue of PC Gamer. As a result, the studio decided to focus on “those things that we feel should have been in the original Cities: Skylines, but we didn’t have the time or manpower.”
Anyone that’s not a fucking idiot already knew this, because we understand how temporal reality works. But the whiny “everything sucks and is bad” Stephanie Sterling crowd won’t care.
But it looks like they did incorporate DLC into the sequel; it just isn’t obvious. The current implementation of extractive versus value added industry looks better than what they did with Industries. The quantity of different transit types also feels like an equivalent to a couple of DLC for the original game. I also feel like the sequel’s approach to power would also be most of a DLC for the original.
It isn’t perfect, but it looks like Collosal Order at least implemented a lot of lessons learned from the original game. It doesn’t seem as empty as C:S at launch.
I’ve played enough CS1 to know that I can’t play it any more, no matter how much content it has. Its absolutely braindead traffic AI destroys my enjoyment of if the game once a city gets sufficiently big.
The traffic AI fixes were all I needed to see to be interested in CS2.
I too am an Adam Something fan. 😂
Edit: the reference https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHnYod32PCk
I don’t actually get that reference.
Oh!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHnYod32PCk
Adam Something just released a C:S2 video where he removed roads and messed with traffic logic.
I see a whole new generation of gamers who have grown up on these new games that they think are perfect, who didn’t see the decades of toil and crap that we did growing up. They expect everything to be the most amazing game they’ve ever seen, not understanding that perfect games are in fact, exceedingly rare. That most games have bad mechanics, quirks, boring areas, and things we put up with. But younger folks just stamp it as a “bad game” and refuse to see the nuance.
Things like games are a spectrum. There’s only 3ish games I mark as perfect. Most will have some things wrong with them. If you don’t like that, then just be content with maybe one perfect game a decade.
While that’s true, there’s also a huge difference from like 20+ years ago when they more often than not released games as a complete functional product as opposed to a “we hit the date” buy-in beta test. Games just tend to release with less features and polish than they used to, for the most part companies will keep working on it and get it where it needs to be so the final product is comparable, but it makes for a murkier cycle, buy in at release and probably suffer or wait and try to time when it’s actually ready.
As much as I like C:S, the thought of getting a relatively barebones game with $200 in DLC over the next 5-7 years to make the city feel complete makes me feel depressed.
That was the bummer in the original game. Only two ways to deal with trash, unless you bought $30 of DLC. I’ll be waiting to see if the game is good or not, or if they totally gimped certain parts of the game like bridges, ports and transit to resell back as a la carte DLC.
I don’t understand this attitude that the new game needs to include the DLC of the old one that’s never been a thing in games. New versions of an old game never previously included the DLC for the old game apart from anything else because it wouldn’t make sense because they’ve changed so many systems.
I think the difference now is that DLC adds features, and so people are upset when the new game is missing features from the old DLC. Where in the past, say with Oblivion or Skyrim, it was just more story, maybe some new skills, in one case there was a new feature (house building) and their newer games do include that feature. But people don’t expect the story line from the DLC in the new game.
Features in DLC feel different these days. In the past DLC had a more limited scope, and you looked forward to the new game for new features. But now if the new game comes out with less features it can be a bummer for people used to the old game. There isn’t really a great solution because I don’t think it always makes sense to add all the DLC features in the new game.
Lol you’re in denial if you think the C:S2 makers aren’t going to try to cash in on paid DLCs constantly for the next decade
It is a damn shame because it turns me off so many games these days, but I guess it must pay off financially because these companies - mostly sim/strategy games - keep doing it and don’t appear to be going bankrupt…
Of course they will. Don’t they deserve to be paid for their work? They’re making a fairly niche product and constantly making improvements to it. What’s to complain about?
Making games is always complicated. If you “release and forget” people complain. If you keep supporting a game for a decade people complain.
Currently on steam, the base game (c:s 1) with all DLC is $404.40
It discourages new players a lot
Edit: apparently downvote = disagree, for shame
I always find this discussion interesting. I don’t personally tend to play Paradox games at all so I’ve no real horse in the race, but I don’t think there’s anything particularly wrong with the model. It’s designed around people being able to buy the specific parts they want, and those specific things having a good level of quality / depth to them.
Like, if you’re really into early 20th century Japanese architecture, would you rather have a single house thrown into a “kitchen sink” DLC pack that you can copy-paste over and over into your city with no options to customise or expand on that, or would you prefer an entire DLC dedicated to that style so you can build a full district or city in that style?
And conversely, if you’re not into early 20th century Japanese architecture, would you rather have a single house in that style thrown into your DLC pack that you don’t care about and won’t ever use, or would you prefer your DLC pack to contain things you are interested in?
Maybe the average consumer does look and think “wow, I really need to spend $404.40 to be able to play the game” and decide against it, I don’t know. But personally, if I see a game has DLCs like “specific niche cosmetic option pack #2” then I see them as not at all necessary, and figure I can play the base game first and just buy any additional packs I want later.
I do play Paradox games and I own most DLCs for Stellaris, I’ve spent way too much on it, and the DLC situation creates a barrier for me to get into the other games. I find it overwhelming and lose interest quickly, when there are plenty of other things I could be doing.
I agree in principle about the cosmetic options but the delivery leaves a lot to be desired
C:S1 is basically designed around most players not buying every DLC. You only buy the ones you want. Also, wait for a sale. $404 over the entire time the game has been out is also not that bad. Sure, buying it all at once it’s a lot, but the player buying every DLC has probably been playing since launch. Think of it as a subscription for new content. You can not subscribe and still get plenty of content (every DLC added stuff to vanilla for free), or you can pay the fee to get everything. If this is your genre, you want to give then money to keep making improvements. If they don’t make money you don’t get anything new.
I know, and I dont disagree necessarily but it still turns new players off
I’ve been on both sides. I’ve got most DLCs for Stellaris for example and sunk thousands of hours into it. But I missed the boat on CK2 and can’t be bothered dealing with the similar swathe of DLC ($358.76 at time of writing, for a game released 10 years ago)
I know you can pick and choose DLC but it is something I just can’t be arsed with, when I could just play something else instead.
I picked up I think literally every DLC for CK2 a few months before CK3 was announced. It’s was maybe $50. I think much less (although I already owned the base game and maybe a few DLCs). No one is expecting new players to purchase that at retail price. The sale price is the actual price for a new player. I don’t think it actually really scares anyone off. If you want a city builder, there’s only one option. You stick it on your wishlist for a sale and buy what you want.
Buy only what you need at first and then go from there.
Also wait for sales.
$404 divided over 10 years is different than as a lump. But getting the whole bundle for 80% off because it’s been successfully developed for 10 years is value.
Absolutely you can wait for sales but that adds another barrier to entry
Don’t they deserve to be paid for their work?
Did I say they don’t? Jeez. Paradox ain’t some guy in his basement, currently they employ 650 people and they are valued at around US$160-170 million
I even said obviously their strategy of infinite DLCs is working because they’re very successful.
Paradox is the publisher. The developers are Colossal Order with a total of 30 employees it seems.
This is a trend that I have recently started noticing. PAYDAY 3 came out with basically nothing included after PAYDAY 2 had literally 10 years of continuous content/80 DLCs pumped into it. As another example, The Sims always comes out with a new release that has every feature removed so they can sell you all the same DLC again and again.
In some cases this would appear to be a (corporate) success, but it seems it’s actually been part of the downfall of recently-released PAYDAY 3. As of this moment in time, the rolling 24-hour peak of player count in PAYDAY 3 is 4,699. The rolling 24-hour peak of PAYDAY 2 is 37,399. Why would players who have a fully finished game with all DLC already available want to play your new barren game?
CK3 was the last straw for me. It’s been years, and the DLC released is both expensive and lacking in the mechanics of CK2.
Why not? The constant updates are what kept me playing for so many years!
I think the developer meant they can’t have a decade of C:S DLC included in vanilla C:S2.
And then you’ve got absolute mad men like Concerned Ape making stardew valley 10 times better with free updates for years and years. Showing these money hungry companies how it’s done.
At the expense of: No Stardew Valley 2.
Honestly, why would we need a Stardew Valley 2? There’s so many harvest moon games but are they really anything more than small iterations? Not to mention those have been garbage since the IP was basically stolen from the original developers.
Yes, companies with 30 employees are, in fact, money hungry because that’s how the employees fucking eat. One person’s recurring costs are nowhere near the recurring costs of dozens of people. WEIRD HOW MATH.
Stardew Valley, Undertale, Braid, all of these one-man (mostly) shows generated enough revenue to effectively retire their creators overnight but if they had to pay 30 motherfuckers with the proceeds… yeah, not so much.
That’s totally expected. Besides, most of the Cities Skylines DLC were shit anyway. I mean building a zoo, seriously?
My experience is the opposite. While there were bad DLCs, most of them were awesome.
Most of the DLCs tried to turn a city building game into a series of tycoon minigames.
Exactly, they completely miss the point of a city builder and don’t fit neatly at all into the main game systems. And the zoo example was just because I find zoos revolting.
I enjoyed adding the new areas / zones to my cities, but the mechanics were dry as fuck and required “cheesing” to unlock all buildings.
I think there was a disconnect between what CO intended CS to be, and what it became. The people playing 8+ years after release want a sandbox where they can create their dream cities, not minuscule goals that made that dream harder.
I’m excited for CS2 because it seems more catered to the sandbox but with better city simulation mechanics, but let’s hope they do something interesting with the DLCs (and fix performance, obviously).
That sounds fun to me considering I liked the original Zoo Tycoon and nothing modern scratches that itch.
Was it at least done well, though? I’ve never really looked through the DLCs. I figured most of them were just visual content additions like new styled buildings and what not.
Some of the DLC, like After Dark (adds day/night cycle with changing resource use depending on the time of day) and Mass Transit (adds a bunch of new transportation methods along with new roads) feel almost essential to the game. Most of the others (like Parklife, which adds the zoo and some other stuff) just add a little more to do in the game once you’ve nailed down what it takes to run a city.
And then there’s the radio stations, in case you wanted to pay $4 to listen to the same 3 songs and 4 fake ads on loop.
Or playable framerates.
From what I’ve seen the road building is far better and basically incorporates all the “retired” mods
I’m sad that zoning is still essentially the same as how SimCity did it in 1989, as I really want mixed use, but that’s a minor quibble
Cities skylines 2 has mixed used, or at least the mini trailers and dev diaries says so
All the people I’ve seen playing it don’t seem to show any specific way to do mixed use, so if it does exist it’s probably just a thing that happens automatically on high density housing units
It’s literally an option in the zoning tool so I don’t know what videos you’ve been watching
It gets unlocked later and the embargoes were staggered so they couldn’t show certain milestones in the game. The newer videos will have it now, so look at those to see everything, including how their computers are chugging even with brand new hardware on high settings.
My take is that they’re trying to sell the game to people who haven’t already purchased CS:1, or who haven’t purchased any DLCs from CS:1. If you’ve already purchased DLC’s, you’ve already served your purpose to the company.
Seems counter intuitive. If that was the case then the true would be of all the Sims games. I bet the majority of buyers will be from CS:1. The market audience is only so big.
I like Paradox DLC policies. Most of them are actually good and add a lot to the game. It also lets them service the game for a long period of time and push free updates along with DLCs.
I really dislike Paradox DLC policies. Most of them are actually really bad and add nothing to the game. It also lets them procrastinate bigger updates and bugfixes for a long period of time and push free updates along with breaking 50% of the mods.
