cross-posted from: https://lemmy.world/post/19004972
Let’s be honest, the real reason Lemmy build most of its traffic is because of Reddit users. But the thing is, outside of the mass exodus in the west that too from the PC era… people discover and join Reddit not because it’s another social media like Facebook or Twitter that people need to reserve their usernames on like a brand or celebrity but because Google Search is kinda… actually absolute trash by SEO and machine learning crawlers.
Most of the world (I am from India btw, hello~) join or even discover reddit because they’re trying to search for actual solutions, recommendations, advice or even reviews by actual experienced people without having to go through another YouTuber which can stem from troubleshooting a router, finding an actual FOSS option or seeking immediate solutions to the recent CrowdStrike fiasco for example. After having to visit reddit every time whenever using a search engine including for education to career advice, I ended up directly signing up with reddit a decade ago.
Recently, Reddit even restricted its search results to Google only in a business partnership meaning those using Bing, DuckDuckGo to Ecosia or even SearchGPT wouldn’t be able to access Reddit answers anymore. Say, if someone searches for how to block ads on chrome as example - Solutions like uBlock Origin come into existence and continue to exist because of the combined community in Reddit that Lemmy is trying to preserve.
Unlike others, am not saying Lemmy would be dead but it would be pretty much like Discord-Telegram or Tumblr instead of wiping Reddit or correcting Facebook. Reddit is not something you discover from word-of-mouth or join from peer pressure unlike other social media which is even truer for Lemmy but because it actually helps and is useful to people.
Lemmy can’t be taking the path of 𝕏 (Alone Mask’s Twitter) but any of the good platforms were before the Enshittification with Facebook’s way~
Lemmy will be indexed less than Reddit, ignoring user counts, because lemmy-ui is client rendered. Googlebot and some others can still index client rendered sites, but others will ignore the content.
God I wish someone went and finally fixed that. It’s incredible that of all the FOSS and community stuff you can find on the internet, lemmy is the big one that can’t even remotely be browsed via w3m / elinks / anything-without-Javascript.
Interesting and well written (cross)post. If you hadn’t said you’re from India, I would have never guessed. The only spelling error I spotted is right at the end where you said Mask and not Musk.
All good though, we’re (almost) all human around here. That’s one of the big reasons that more experienced and educated people are switching towards the fediverse…
Fuck Spez
I don’t know OP’s specific background but english is taught in most of the subcontinent and is the primary language for business and formal matters, so I wouldn’t expect any issues with it
Honestly I haven’t studied foreign languages all that much, but I’ve heard the accents that come from a variety of regions and countries.
The last time I got confused about anything spoken in English by an Indian man, I mistook ‘tiles’ as ‘towels’.
I totally lost out on a tile installation job offer over that, because of a misunderstanding over what’s basically the pronunciation of a particular vowel.
Like, in the back of my head, I’m wondering why this hotel owner is telling me he’s updating his towels, when really he said tiles. He was offering me a job…
I didn’t find out until he got others to do all the work ☹️
Vowels can be extremely important in communication…
I’m from Connecticut and once had a serious problem with a person my company insured from North Carolina. He was talking to me about what caused his accent and I kept hearing “tar” instead of “tire.” We were equally qualified as native speakers.
If you’re concerned, you can listen to more Indian English, because familiarity should ease any understanding difficulties in the future.
I had already spent years doing occasional side work with around a dozen if not more folks originally from India. Most, except the oldest of the elders spoke good if not excellent English. But there’s pretty much always gonna be at least a subtle accent, if not a heavy accent with secondary languages.
I thought I understood the fella clearly, but it was both a combination of his accent plus the strange sentence structure context that threw me totally off.
He said he was ‘updating his tiles’, but I misunderstood his vowels, so I heard ‘updating his towels’
And why the hell would he use the word updating, he was literally having all the carpet removed in 44+ rooms and having tiles installed, not ‘updated’.
So even the context clues didn’t add up, I never guessed he was talking about the tile work he had been planning for months.
Sometimes it’s a second (or fifth) language for Indian people, but it’s also a dialect which is just as valid as your dialect and it’s got the second most English speakers in the world. The accent may just be an accent, you definitely shouldn’t assume that it’s a sign someone will have incorrect English. It sounds like you’re not in practice, but that’s definitely how I read your comments
Maybe OP is fluent and I’ll give the benefit of the doubt but I’ve also seen many developers specifically from India use Grammarly or ChatGPT to correct their writing. Idk, it’s something to consider.
Twitter has been turned into a dumpster fire and people are still using it because of convenience, the same applies to Reddit.
I left Reddit not just because of the CEO but also because of the awful app they forced their users to use full of ads.
Spez (or one of their admin monkeys) perma-banned me from Reddit after like 7 years, for of all stupid things, posting actual facts about Elon Musk and his Boring Company’s “Not A Flamethrower” contraption.
Wasn’t any hate speech. Wasn’t misinformation, I even posted reference links. Wasn’t anything inappropriate or gory. Just straight up facts.
That was not all that long before Elon bought Xhitter.
Gotta love the irony huh? Fuck Spez and Musk.
You mean other than “it’s content” in the title?
Meh, true that. Hell, I dunno how to properly cross post on Lemmy, nor do I bother doing that anyways so whatever. 🤷♂️
The only spelling error I spotted is right at the end where you said Mask and not Musk.
It’s a wordplay. I personally call him Melon Husk.
The only spelling error I spotted is right at the end where you said Mask and not Musk
Pretty sure “Alone Mask” is intentional. It seems to be common to misspell his name on purpose. I’ve seen “Elmo Husk”, “Leon Skum”, etc.
Perhaps 🤷♂️
In case you don’t trust TinyURL, which I totally wouldn’t blame you, that’s a short link to a ~1MB low quality archived version of Elon Musk Eating Toilets…
Isn’t Lenny content being openly indexed by most search engines? I think we just don’t have the years of content here, so it’s not going to have the same gravity.
Also, I wonder about all the varied domain names of all the servers. Would search engines treat them all as separate sites, and calculate page rank for each separately? If that’s the case, the influence of Lemmy in search results would be even lower.
It is and search engines do treat them separately, which is problematic, as seeing the same content on multiple domains may be seen as spammy and lead to downranking.
https://github.com/marsara9/lemmy-search tried to fix this, but was put on hold due to some perf issues with a lemmy update.
Kagi recently added a fediverse filter, though I barely use it because there are rarely good results. Just isn’t much content worth searching on lemmy yet
I don’t think this is true, Lemmy is already using
rel="canonical"which should be telling Google what the real URL is, like here on programming.dev I see this in the page source<link data-inferno-helmet="true" rel="canonical" href="https://lemmy.world/post/19493729">which is why the Google results for this search don’t show a million different instances mirroring it
https://www.semrush.com/blog/canonical-url-guide/
Here was the discussion about it where it was fixed last year https://github.com/LemmyNet/lemmy-ui/issues/1418
That’s good, I didn’t know about that. Although the problem does still seem to exist with
different software
and different frontends
but Lemmy already does show up on Google results
Tried searching this on ddg, not there yet probably because it’s not indexed and cached yet
I clicked that link and the first dozen results were Reddit posts and garbage
Top two are Lemmy instances.
For me it’s 4 Lemmy results and then 2 reddit results and after than chaos ensues.
something on your end? my top result is from lemmy.world
maybe try opening the link in Private Mode or Incognito
*its content
It does suck, that even within the apps or sites themselves, the search only gives communities.
Like, not being able to search for specific issues, people, or any other topic already posted even within your own instance is my biggest issue with Lemmy not being a sufficient replacement.
Like Reddit was the best place on the internet to go when was stuck with a Linux issue for instance. And rarely even having to post. Just searching the issue would generally get you fixed. Then we could start copying all the invaluable information over here from our communities efforts, and could then be truly free of Reddit once and for all!
Like, not being able to search for specific issues, people, or any other topic already posted even within your own instance is my biggest issue with Lemmy not being a sufficient replacement.
The search page does allow all of this.
You can filter by type (post, user, community, etc), Local/All/Subscribed, searching within a community, choosing a sort option or restricting to past year/month/week… I think it’s much better than Reddit’s search.
My bad, but good to know. The Jerboa app is almost all I use currently since I’m without a computer ATM. Do any of the apps do better with search?
I haven’t used Jerboa in a while, but I know Boost supports almost all of the search features
Voyager is great.
OMG, Voyager is SO much better! Not sure why I hadn’t tried it
To add on to that, Thunder have implemented all these search features in the app.
Yeah, I think that’s definitely one of the roadblocks Lemmy is facing at the moment. Even though I deleted my Reddit account after the API nonsense, I’m absolutely still appending every DDG or Startpage search with “reddit.” Especially with the flood of AI-generated garbage filling search results, it’s the easiest way to get quick answers from (probably) real people.
However, that also relates to Reddit’s other advantage, in that it actually has a decade and a half of content to be indexed in the first place. The magic of Reddit is that every question has been asked in every way at least 5 times over, Lemmy just doesn’t have that history yet.
Lemmy is search indexable. It includes the necessary metadata headers to link back to original domains as well, something other ActivityPub implementations forgot.
The user base on Lemmy is tiny compared to Reddit, though. Same with Mastodon vs Twitter. The problem isn’t search indexing, it’s the user base being several orders of magnitude smaller.
If you search for topics where Lemmy has a lot of posts (Linux distros, for instance), you can already find Lemmy in the search results every now and then.
I don’t understand the Fedievrse objection to search indexing. Search indexing is the most important piece of what makes the internet.
What? There is no “Fediverse objection” to indexing by search engines. Who told you that? Lemmy is actively being indexed and is showing up when you search for posts.
There’s no objection here https://www.google.com/search?q=Lemmy+wouldn’t+really+takeoff+to+replace+Reddit+until+it’s+content+is+search+indexable
An example fix from over a year ago https://github.com/LemmyNet/lemmy-ui/issues/1418
What I had in mind was the Mastodon meltdown some years ago over search indexing.
I think the main problem with searching for fediverse posts is not that they’re not indexed but the lack of a singular tag to append when you want to search for them. To search for reddit posts it was easy because you could put in your keywords and stick ‘reddit’ or ‘site:reddit.com’ onto the end, but now there’s too many domains to keep track of and you can’t rely on appending ‘lemmy’ pointing a search engine towards all Lemmy instances, let alone kbin/mbin instances.
Exactly and for the same reason Lemmy won’t become as big as it has the potential to become. “Join Lemmy!” “How?” “Go to one of hundreds of websites and join and you’ll have access to the Lemmy content the admin decided you could have access to… Oh and people logging in from those other sites might not have access to the content on your site so you might not be able to interact with a big chunk of users unless it’s on a website that is connected to both your site and the site your site isn’t connected to so choose the site you create your account on wisely! Makes sense?”
Also, even if you find results through searching, it sucks that it probably brings you to an instance that isn’t yours so you have to figure out a way to open the link from your own instance in order to post in the discussion… That is, if you actually can from the instance you’re signing in from!
it probably brings you to an instance that isn’t yours so you have to figure out a way to open the link from your own instance
This is a pretty much a solved problem, the solution just needs to be promoted more, perhaps even on the join-lemmy page.
It’s a bad idea to compare Lemmy to Reddit or expect Lemmy to replace Reddit.
Slow growth is not a problem, it’s actually a benefit.
There is no hurry, and no need to push for high user counts.
Rather than trying to attract more people, focus on making your communities an attractive place to be.
I don’t think I’ll ever take off while it’s called Lemmy. It’s just not a word that sounds ‘good’ in my opinion.
Even taking only English speakers into account, it isn’t a bad name. It’s a simple word, it sounds like “let me” (good association - unlike… GIMP), at most it might evoke you Lemmings.
And once considering other languages it’s actually better than plenty brands out there, including Reddit, Facebook or Twitter. By sticking to CV syllables there’s less room to butcher it into unrecognisability.
It’s not really about the name, people are just too lazy to switch app and they don’t care about the greedy Reddit’s CEO trying to make money in every possible way. Last thing I read about him was his idea to put some subreddits behind a paywall.
I was still using the Reddit app but with some tweaks installed on iOS to block ads, otherwise every app that it’s full of ads it’s just unusable.
switch app
Boost and Sync are available here as well
I tries to pus lemurs, but no one followed.
As many others have already said, Lemmy is fully indexable by search engines. In fact, in this very community there have been posts about Lemmy content being above other results from more prominent sites like Reddit for certain topics.
There are MANY reasons that Lemmy won’t replace Reddit…the list is almost endless, with each individual reason not being a hurdle on its own that can’t be solved. However the combined number of problems is just mind blowing.
There is one chief problem that sums up all the little problems quite nicely. It’s the Fediverse culture. It’s somehow a platform that is designed to be open and free, but because of the userbase comes off as a walled garden. If you’re not a programmer, or a linux user, or have techie interests, it’s not the platform for you. And in order to even be comparible to reddit, it has to be a platform for everyone.
As it stands though, Lfmmy is a disjointed, unorganized mess that if you aren’t part of their clique, you’re not welcome. If you say anything bad about linux, or star trek, or github, you get downvoted to hell. Ask me how I know.
Oh, and for the record, linux is ALSO a confusing hot mess for the average person. But until linux developers accept this, and make a linux distro that is as easy to understand as windows, it’s userbase will remain something akin to a rounding error for windows userbase numbers. And I’m saying that as someone who’s remaining on Windows 7, because everything since has been hot garbage.
If you’re not a programmer, or a linux user, or have techie interests, it’s not the platform for you.
There is a group of people who created a community here because their sub got banned. They cannot be more far from linux or tech, still they do well, their community is active and they are able to discuss.
Sometimes I feel like the complexity of Lemmy is exaggerated. People ask you about it, “go to Lemm.ee, use it the same way as Reddit. And as Reddit, don’t hesitate to block political communities”
Oh, and for the record, linux is ALSO a confusing hot mess for the average person. But until linux developers accept this,
I’ve heard the same kind of stuff about lots… lots of things that “will never catch on”. Every one of those doomsayers were wrong. Some of them unfortunately, but still, they were all wrong.
You’re not gonna get many linux users respecting your opinion on tech if youre such an outlier. Windows 7? Cmon, ya gotta expect to get pushback on this right? Not just Linux nerds either… like Who do you tell this bombshell to and they’re like “yeah ok that’s normal?”
If you say anything bad about linux, or star trek, or github, you get downvoted to hell
If not simply moderated out of the community because ‘fostering dialogue is an important goal’.
You are right. I made a post about why I liked my iPhone in the Apple Enthusiasts community, and some Lemmy users were furious.
That needs to stop. Did the moderators jump in?
No. My post got 40% down votes. One particular user insisted that I was using Samsung flaws as an excuse to like the iPhone. That I should admit that I just wanted an iPhone and my criticism towards Android were invalid.
I felt like talking to cultists. But I don’t think mods needed to involve. Lemmy is what it is.
Sad to hear.
But I don’t think mods needed to involve.
I think they should to an extend, especially if the topic is Apple, being Apple to like Apple products seems like an evidence.
I sometimes wish voting (or downvoting) could be limited to subscribers the subscribers of a community. Do you think this could help reduce cases like this?
That’s a cool idea. There have been somewhat related discussions, but I can’t find any exactly like that. Maybe you should file an issue on GitHub for them?
I’ve seen your post. Ouch - you stumbled upon some nasty circlejerking there. On multiple levels.
Plenty people here expect you to treat their “vision” as above everything else. Including your agency (“free will”), issues that you might want to solve, etc. That makes them unable to tell the difference between “criticising Apple” (a fair thing to do) versus “treating someone who bought an iPhone as an emissary of Satan” (what they’re doing against you).
To make things worse plenty muppets there are putting words in your mouth, regarding Samsung vs. Apple.
If it’s any consolation, it isn’t just Lemmy. The whole internet of the 20s feels like this nowadays.
TL;DR: I know that feel, bro.
the userbase comes off as a walled garden
I’m smoking weed about it.
People said the exact same thing about reddit being only good for technology enthusiasts and porn in the early days.
In my experience that is just how it goes on the internet. Nerds, furries, and porn collectors, are the early adopters for most places. The normies follow along years later.
Lemmy won’t catch on until there are groups of communities you can ban at once. Sports, Linux, German, pervy anime… It’s a very rare user who will put up with the absolute dreck of the initial feed and manually block communities until they have a feed that’s marginally personalized.
Then there’s the fact that any communities that are specific to peoples interests are completely empty.
Then there’s the fact that any communities that are specific to peoples interests are completely empty.
Those should be locked, and redirect to more generic active communities for the time being.
Any example in mind?
Sailing. Boating. Sewing. Those are they tops ones I miss from reddit that had active users. Instead we have 7000 communities for linux and pervy anime.
I mean it predates a lot of the pervy anime, but Usenet looked the same at the start with lots of Unix/computer boards and an alt.
Computer enthusiasts gonna enthusiastically talk about computers. People who pick up and move to a new platform are likely to be united around being technically competent enough to get there first, and everything else second.
Very true. But that’s what we can create whole instances for: to be the site you think will attract the users you want. With curated feeds, less pervy content, whatever.
There’s nothing stopping anyone from starting a whole new world they want to see in the fediverse. Lemmy and other fedi apps are built like this for that very purpose.
Yes, but I’m talking about mass adoption. Very few users care, they want to scroll through and see stuff they like. They don’t want to curate and host and delve into the intricacies. Until such time as someone makes lemmy palatable, the masses won’t eat it.
That level of feed curation will appeal more to the masses, yeah. Just no one has started an instance like that yet. Although you seem like the perfect person, based on your analysis and responses. 😉
Bluesky is closer to what you’re describing. The platform is more centralized and the feeds are more curated for the masses.
I’m that level of user that will block the ever loving shit out of everything but not do much to make it better. The problem is that once you’ve blocked everything you have pretty much zero interest in there isn’t much left on lemmy. Still better than reddit though.
