I get this is satire but people truly believe this. Web devs literally create software that runs nearly every facet of modern life.
Honestly, nobody should call themselves an engineer unless they literally drive trains for a living.
In many countries the term “engineer” is a protected title.
Driving a train is engineering?
In North America, the driver of a train engine is called an “engineer”, yes.
See I’d call that a conductor
See I thought a conductor was a person who grabs a live main wire while standing in water.
In the US, a conductor is the one who checks tickets, makes announcements, and delegates tasks to the crew to help ensure things keep moving on time.
The locomotive engineer is the one who is “driving” the train. They run the engine and communicate with dispatch and traffic control to keep them informed where this particular train is fitting into the overall juggling act,. They also make every effort to keep things safe (watching for signals, obstructions, etc.).
I’m not 100% sure if the terminology is different outside of the Us.
(Source: My father is a 3rd generation locomotive engineer.)
I see, TIL. That’s different from Germany, where Ingenieur is a protected term.
In the railway context an engineer was the person who worked the engine.
In German the word comes from Latin roughly meaning inventor. Presumably the general usage of the word engineer in English has the same etymology.
Funny and infromative
Infrastructure erasure in the states is so bad that people who build it for a living aren’t even considered anymore.
I have a CS Masters degree and it says engineer on it.
There is a difference between Computer Science and >!web development!< though.
There really isn’t. For example web browsers can execute assembly now and a good “web developer” (I’d call them a software engineer) will use assembly where appropriate.
“web development” casts a wide net.
The classic imagery of someone playing with frontpage back in the day, or screwing around with html in a text editor, sure. But those folks wouldn’t call themselves web developers (there was a phase over 20 years ago where anyone that cobbled together a geocities would declare ‘web developer’ on their resume, but I haven’t seen someone do that in ages).
However, you can get in pretty deep with code running in the browser as javascript and/or wasm. Backend gives them some nested dictionary in json or protobuf and they parse, manipulate, iterate over it, sometimes making some pretty complex visualizations. Basically a ‘web developer’ is nowadays on par with any Game or GUI application developer in terms of what they might be writing. There are a few things left out of direct reach by a browser runtime, but you have access to plenty and the backend abstractions to get something in reach of HTTP are often no easier than the thing being abstracted, it’s just reframed as ‘http’.
Did you Master Engineering Computer Scientists?
No. Counter strike
Unironically this. Started playing on the campus network in my master’s year.
Darn skippy I did! Not much of a web designer, though.
I have a CS Masters degree and it says engineer on it.
they should also ban web developers who refer to themselves as ninjas, especially code ninjas
What if you do it ironically? Like calling yourself a Code Ninja Jedi 10x Rockstar 🚀?
Bullshit. This started long ago. We’re deep in the midst of it now.
Ninjas, super-heroes, black-belt and terms like that are known gender-excluders. I’ve been through a couple of adjustment sessions for company standard job descriptions and it’s unreal how you can change the applicant mix by wording.
Ah yes, I’ve spent decades cringing when I meet a self-proclaimed or even peer-proclaimed “rockstar”, “ninja”, “guru”, “jedi”, or probably a half dozen other “cool” designations for a tech worker.
rockstar
We fixed that one: https://codewithrockstar.com/
This is not a new kind of policy for Tinder. In the past, PhDs in Social Sciences were banned for impersonating ‘doctors’.
How were they impersonating doctors? How does Tinder verify any of these claims?
First of all, it’s a pretty obvious joke.
In this case, the joke is: “people with a PhD are doctors. It’s a doctorate. But the field of social sciences is not real science, and thus shouldn’t count as a doctorate.”
I get the joke, what I don’t get is how one can impersonate a doctor on Tinder. Are people wearing lab coats in their pictures or something?
The joke isn’t that they’re impersonating a medical professional. It’s that they’re impersonating the title of “doctor” by claiming a PhD. Someone with an Art History PhD is a doctor, but the joke here is that they aren’t really deserving of that title.
Dude, I get the bloody joke!
I’m very specifically asking how they are impersonating it on Tinder. Is it a picture? Is there a field in Tinder you can fill out with your job title? Do they write it in the description?
And I’m asking how Tinder is verifying that.
Tinder isn’t verifying it. It’s just a joke.
Is there a field in Tinder you can fill out with your job title?
Yes
And I’m asking how Tinder is verifying that.
They’re not. It’s fake
Oh, I see now. It’s a satire article! Given I don’t use Tinder and have seen exclusive dating apps, it really wasn’t far-fetched.
Thanks for clearing that up.
I perused the comments and didn’t see anyone mention this. The term “engineer” is regulated by every state in the US. I doubt they had Tinder in mind, but calling yourself an “engineer” without having a Professional Engineer license is illegal, at least when it comes to offering professional engineering services. It’s a protected title so that schools and bridges don’t get built by scammers–at least that was the intention. I can legally call myself an Engineer!
Just go get your license, and you should be golden lol.
The only real software engineer anymore is Linus Torvalds, everyone else stands on the shoulders of giants.
Ever since TempleOS guy left us, it’s never been the same…
He was genuinely a really good developer. It’s unfortunate that he was schizophrenic.
His name was Terry Davis
It’s still is, but that would be a bad joke on my end.
Still is? I’m afraid I have bad news for you…
His name was Terry Davis.
His name was Terry Davis.
Oh boy! Do I have news for you!
Like… every engineer?
Are you doing that thing where you troll by saying something really stupid and wait for others to correct you?
Are you?
No, you made a statement. I asked a question. My question isn’t a troll since it has a clear yes or no answer.
An answer you’ve failed to provide.
No, I believe it’s called a joke
No, jokes have structure. It could be sarcasm but it could as easily be trolling.
I take back my chuckle
What if my job title says that? Who’s going to tell my employer they’re wrong.
Then again, “full stack software engineer” as a title might also well just be buzzwords.
!And yes, I know the site is satire lol.!<
Unless you know what “full stack” means.
I liken a software engineer to someone like an architect. Architects will spend countless hours doing research, sketching out designs, creating documentation and presentations, and maybe even building to-scale models. But one thing they don’t do is actually build their designs. The constructions workers do that. And in the case of software (be it web or otherwise), those people are the developers.
Now, there are exceptions to every rule. I acknowledge that - especially in computing - it’s possible to blur lines. But I still feel there many more developers than there are real software engineers.
I haven’t met an “engineer” who isn’t developing code. This is such a weird distinction. The people asking for a design are the customer, the high level design handled by the product manager, the nitty gritty is handled by the software engineers. Some businesses may make a distinction for payroll purposes but there is no prevailing standard.
But architects aren’t engineers either! We have engineers in building construction, they are called engineers.
They ensure all required calculations are done, all safety standards are adhered to, they complete detailed designs, and they sign off on a project legally so things like quotes and timelines have legal teeth.
And, unlike engineers in manufacturing whose deep-pocket corporations bought an exemption, Engineers in the A/E/C field are licensed. And if you screw up you can lose your ability to work in your field…forever.
I mean, engineering is really problem solving, and not do we web developers solve problems. We may have made most of them ourselves, and new ones when we solve those, but we do solve problems.
Engineering is the use of scientific knowledge to achieve specific goals.
The term engineering is not about problem-solving, especially when differentiated from development. Engineering is about deliberate understanding and decision-making, about giving it an architecture, a structure.
You can develop without any structure, solving an issue, without understanding a bigger context or picture or behavior. But that’s not engineering.
While backend- and other types of software developers seem to be unaffected
What if you write backend code for web application?
As a non-software engineer, feels weird that they’re making this distinction.
I don’t have much to do with engines either.
I take engineer to mean: designs stuff that does some task, involving SOME kind of calculation.
Visual designer: not an engineer
Piping designer: not an engineer (although this one felt weird, that’s what the piping designer corrected me to say, so)
Chemical engineer: ya
Mechanical engineer: yeah
Software engineer: totally different flavour, but still yeah
Language is what we want it to be.
Web designers presumably still need to script things, I reckon that counts 👍
Funny enough, I probably did more software engineering as a web dev than I did as a software engineer at some companies.
In the UK, at least, the only difference typically between a web developer and a software engineer is £15-20k in salary. Frankly, we’re all software engineers…
What are dev/engineer salaries like in the UK? Been considering places to move to…
Varies heavily dependent on industry, but typically less than US devs. Also if you live outside London it’s going to be a lot less.
You average non-junior dev will probably make about 50-60k £ in london but about 25-35k £ outside london.
Senior developer can vary heavily. in london I’ve seen 60-120k depending on language and industry.
Wait so it’s possible a Senior Dev outside of London would make $35k??
Pounds and dollars are not the same. Also don’t move country just for a job, you can probably work remotely anyway!
I’m a senior in the north east and I’m on 32k. But cost of living and houses are sooooo much cheaper here. I am not scraping by, I’m doing good.
However things like cars, phones, vacations, gas/petrol or electricity still cost the same everywhere…
Vacations maybe because that also depends on where you want to go. Cars can differ wildly, unless you want a sportscar or some such. Same goes for phones, often you get one „free“ with your contract for mobile. Gas/Petrol vary a lot, because of taxes and other state side things attached to them. Same goes for electricity plus those also depend on availability.
A VW Golf or a Hyundai i20 costs the same in London as in a village, not only a Porsche.
Same for the phone, the contract per month is the same anywhere you live.
Taxes on gas usually are the same for all locations in a country, at least in the countries I’ve lived in. Only highway/town variations.
I’d love to see where electricity prices vary locally, never seen that myself.
I’d say you’re very underpaid, I’m making about 50% more than that in a fully remote UK-based mid-level position. You should start looking for a new job, even if it’s just as leverage to get paid fairly at your current place.
Oh yeah, I’m severely underpaid in my current job, even for where I live and what my role is. But I’m happy with my bosses and my colleagues. They’ve got my back more than not and I can be happy knowing I’m not in a hostile work environment. They are my genuine friends. Also helps that I enjoy the work I do. It’s not going to be my forever job but I’m savoring it while i can before I move on.
If they’re genuine friends they’ll be receptive when you ask them to pay you fairly.
To add to this, I get paid more as a junior in Wales which should be comparable to NW England economically.
About half of the equivalent in the US, often less. It’s exceedingly rare to make 100k here even in a senior position, although it does exist. Median is 40-50k (pounds, so times that by 1.2 for USD).
You made that as a senior software dev in Finance more than a decade ago, more now (mainly because the pound went down versus other main currencies), especially if you’re working in the Front Office (i.e. directly with business, such as Traders and Analysts)
However breaking into Front Office IT in Finance without previous experience in your CV working in banking or similar is pretty though.
Sure, yes, but those kinds of positions in the US make 300k or more too. Also, then you work in finance and you have to live with the fact that you are categorically making the world a worse place every day.
Absolutelly, I agree with you, on all of it.
Holy crap. That’d be a pretty substantial cut for me, but I guess that said, is the COL a lot less?
Afaik it’s similar here in Germany.
BUT you need go remember: We have social insurance and don’t need to pay 5000$ whwn taking the ambulance etc. etc.
So if you exclude that we may come close if you need to see a doc on the regular.Even then it’s a pay cut. I know some people who moved to NA, and egotistically it’s a sound decision because engineers there are on the right side of the wealth disparity ravine. Money’s good enough that you don’t need social safety nets. And if push comes to shove, someone making $100k/y can definitely afford health insurance and the occasional trip for medical tourism.
Now personally I believe in income redistribution so I’m happy to pay a lot of taxes in one of the most income-egalitarian countries in the world. But I’d make a shit-ton more if I lived&worked in Luxembourg or Canada.
I did the math a few years ago when Trump was president.
I currently make double in America of what is made in other countries. It was something ridiculous like even if I had $35k a year in med expenses, I’d still be making more in the US.
Either American engineers are paid way out of proportion, or the rest of the world pays poorly. Either way, I’m going to ride this train before Skynet replaced me.
Then you need surgery and your COL is already >50% of your net income and you are a 100k in debt. And assuming you have savings, I’d rather spend them on myself (vacation etc.) rather than brace for my bankruptcy because I stood up wrong.
Now personally I believe in income redistribution so I’m happy to pay a lot of taxes in one of the most income-egalitarian countries in the world.
So same for me
These careers do have decent insurance in the US. Long term illness is a different beast, but the most of ever pay for a medically necessary surgery is $3800, which is my max out of pocket. And I’d get short term disability which pays both 80% of my salary to me, and some amount to the company to compensate for my lost time.
Good jobs in the US really don’t have as many horror stories you are always hearing on the internet. I mean, we have lots of other horror stories which are totally true, like our schools being violent and deadly. And rural areas being filled with the stupidest people on the planet. And even in lots of tier one US cities, the public transportation being useless.
COL is not anywhere near $50k/y ($4100/mo!) except maaaybe in some very narrow parts (basically just SV an Manhattan, assuming you want a decently large apartment). But in either of those places an engineer makes up for it by making $150k/y instead.
Also rich Americans have good insurance, I’m sure you could find an example of someone who had this happen but it’s basically a non-risk.
And if healthcare was the only problem, then Canada would be an option as well. Engineers there still make a shitload more than German engineers. Watch out for the real estate market tho.
Yes, depending on where you live rent might be similar (London isn’t much cheaper than NY or LA) but cost of living is otherwise less. Also, people tend to work much shorter hours (a limit of 37 for me, any extra is returned as PTO) and start with much more annual leave (25 days discretionary, for me, plus public holidays, plus we close over Christmas and new year’s). Furthermore there’s no health costs to pay etc. On the whole it balances out and I think the lifestyle here is better, but I do envy the extreme salaries of those in the US.
Wow those benefits are amazing.
It’s not too crazy here :) 25 days a year is the legal minimum and I get about 10 more than that, plus a few extra from doing overtime here and there. That’s why I say the lifestyle is on the whole better here even though we don’t earn nearly as much. It’s still plenty to pay the mortgage, and Europe is right on the doorstep to spend all that holiday time in.
As someone in the US, 40 hours per week is the minimum. Recognition for “being a hard worker” has required 60+ hours at some places I’ve worked. This is for a fixed salary and no overtime pay, mind you. Then you’re usually on an on call rotation every few weeks where you may have to work off-hours if something comes up. That’s additional unpaid hours. My current company pays $80,000 USD for new college grad software developers.
US holidays are 8-10 days, and junior devs usually start with 5-10 days of vacation. Health insurance costs at least several hundred a month (your employer also pays about 3x more than you towards your insurance premium as a benefit).
You’re actually getting applicants at 80k? That’s nuts. Last I checked fresh outs were clearing 100k.
Despite incessant reassurance from recruiting that they have the best market data and we’re paying above average, I have reasons to suspect that’s not the truth. One of them being we’re hemorrhaging mid-grade talent and focusing on hiring backfills in Ireland and Hungary for much lower salaries. It almost seems like they’re trying to offshore the dev group via attrition to work around having to do layoffs…
I still wouldn’t say software engineering is actual engineering.
You mean you wouldn’t expect a software engineer to understand the coefficient of thermal expansion of tungsten carbide in a gas lubricated piston/cylinder pneumatic deadweight calibration system?
Yeah, me either. But I would expect one to know how to research the documentation to find out what it meant.
Even though my job title has “engineer” in it, I don’t agree that it should be considered an area of engineering.
Yeah, me either. But I would expect one to know how to research the documentation to find out what it meant.
I wouldn’t even expect most of them to this kind of research, no. On top of that, I see “engineering” also carrying some type of accountability and responsibility. For example, civil engineering, there are often regulatory bodies, codes, and standards that engineers must adhere to, and they are legally responsible for the safety and integrity of their projects. While in the software side of things, standards and best practices are more loose. Unless you’re working in safety critical industries (automotive, aviation, etc…), the “accountability structure” is completely different, if existent at all. Calling themselves Software developer or some derivate would make much more from my point of view.
The software and systems engineers in my field are responsible for ensuring systems comply with industry best practices, compliant with NIST, and STIG hardened. If they sign off on a systems design for production deployment their ass is most assuredly on the line. I will agree that the legal part is fuzzier since it’s ultimately the agency head that is legally responsible, which gets delegated to an authorizing official, who depends on a security compliance inspector, who evaluates the information system security engineers system/design. While generally lives are not currently on the line for most information systems, the buck does stop at the engineers desk in my line of work. For complex interconnected systems it is not uncommon to have a security architect responsible for the secure integration of disparate systems/components who relies on design documentation from the engineers. While not a perfectly compatible definition to a licensed engineer, it provides a logical framework that makes sense in the associated application and their is a perfectly clear enough division, currently, between careers that it doesn’t create confusion. A licensed professional engineer will most certainly be titled appropriately and clearly. An information systems engineer or software engineer will likely hold advanced certifications but will not be making false claims as a PE, no PE is going to accidentally apply to be a systems/software engineer. The whole discussion is a solution looking for a problem. A PE is distinguished well above an engineering job title by anybody that is anybody. Theirs a disappointing number of people that think everybody in the Air Force is a pilot, worrying about the uninformed portion of the population is pointless. Regulatory checks and balances exist. No information system/software engineer is going to be designing/approving a bridge that actually gets built without also being a PE. All that said, my boss is actually a PE certified systems architect with a CS degree who worked as an ISSE in his last role (we are in a CISA critical infrastructure sector).
I think the idea is, most people could build a doghouse with no training, but you need planning and education to plan/build a skyscraper. If you want to write your own app at home, maybe no software planning is really required. Keep nailing in workarounds. But if you want to build a huge system, you need to do a bit more than workarounds. You need a good plan from the start to make it all efficient and in a manner others can contribute to the code base.
That said, I feel like just having workarounds is really common even in large industry settings. Maybe I’m wrong though. I’m more of a home doghouse builder type myself.
Anyone can build a bridge. Only an engineer can build a bridge that barely stands.
In the same way, the fact that one built a large online platform, that doesn’t necessarily mean it was built with minimal ressources and without taking past or future risk.
Engineering is, as a profession, specifically the application of scientific principles to solve problems the right way, the first time, that is to say efficiently, and with minimal risk.
The fact that one codes, or wields a wrench, or operates a C&C machine does not mean one is applying science to solve problems efficiently and managing risk. These are entirely different skills and professions.
And software development isn’t actually development. They don’t build houses!
Did you mean to say software architecture?
What about software painting ?
Why? Excited to hear another internet hot take
As long as they don’t start building tunnels under their house because they’re an ‘engineer’…
Now this is the kind of ‘news’ I’d like to see posted on hackernews just to read their techbro shit takes.
