Well the bomb was retaliation for the Bataan Death March.
Either way, no side is innocent.
Yeah, I’m so glad the civilians in Hiroshima got punished for participating in war crimes
Gotta blow em up make a point y’know
I feel like it’s how my gut flora aren’t responsible for my actions or anything but will suffer my choices and others’ choices involving me.
The bomb is one of the many crime against humanity US have commited and have not been punished for. Hiroshima museum is a testimony of this crime.
Promptly swept under the rug and censored so the country doesn’t get a bad rep
… oh wait
When’s the next war on bud light rainbow cans? 🤡🫡🤡
On Thursday.
Thursday is no good for me, planning on having my bros over for a no homo circle fuck and foot rub party. Can’t do that without Bud light, obviously
The predicted Allied casualties for a mainland invasion of Japan were so high, especially with regard to the civilian fanaticism witnessed throughout the Island-hopping Campaign, the right choice was using the Atomic Bomb. After use of the first atomic bomb, when Japan failed to yield and refused to surrender, the return to consideration to a homeland invasion, along with running the numbers of anticipated Allied casualties, made using the second Atomic Bomb the correct choice. The best choice was made, with regard to the information on hand at the time.
The predicted Allied casualties for a mainland invasion of Japan were so high
Those estimates were made after the fact, in response to criticism. In reality, a mainland invasion was never in the cards at all. It’s a myth. There’s nothing about it in any of the letters or journals of the people making the decisions. There were two actual alternatives to the bomb:
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Cooperating more with the Soviets. The Japanese refused to surrender in part because they were holding out a desperate hope that the USSR would intercede as a neutral third party in peace negotiations, when in fact they were just stalling for time while they redeployed their troops from Europe to Asia. The US and USSR had planned to issue a joint declaration calling for Japan to surrender at Potsdam, but Truman pulled out at the last minute when he heard that the bomb had been tested successfully. The soviet declaration of war was only days apart from the dropping of the bombs and the Japanese surrender.
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Accepting conditional, rather than unconditional surrender. The Japanese had already offered to surrender on the sole condition that the emperor not be tried for war crimes. The US had every intention of doing that, and it’s what they actually did after the war. However, Truman had promised “unconditional surrender” and he wanted the newspapers to call it that.
The decision was all about prestige and politics and not sharing the spotlight. It wasn’t necessary.
This is a very long video about it but it’s very informative and well sourced.
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I’m not interested in your American propaganda protecting American innocence.
You think killing anywhere from 150,000 to 246,000 civilians to kill 10,000 military personnel is good?
the right choice was using the Atomic Bomb.
Least rabid and bloodthirsty imperial dog
The mods at non credible defence aren’t going to like this.
Being an outsider I thought non credible defence was just memes about military things, are they specifically pro US imperialism?
They might still cum from the top left one
What even is the purpose of that sub?
Spreading war propaganda
It’s just shitposting but defense themed
What if my jerking in a circle was heavily armed?
Like bear arms?
Literally what the founders wanted.
Defense, in the same way the pictures in OP were defense.
Of course from a russian POV it musst look like that to a .ml enjoyer.
Russians are the only ones who don’t like it when we drop bombs on kids. Idk why they wanna spoil everyone else’s fun! The kids are fine with it, it’s just those mean ol’ Russians going on about “human rights” or whatever. The million dollar bombs that we build instead of paying for healthcare, education, or functional bridges are so damn cool that the only reason anyone would possibly have a problem with them is if they just hate America.
This is what y’all actually believe, but the even crazier part is that you’ve somehow managed to convince yourselves you’re leftists!
Oof, more .ml talk, I’m not gonna read that shit lmao
ja wear a black armband when they shot the man who said peace could last forever?
Par for the course.
hurrr ml 🙉
The first picture is an apartment block getting leveled.
The third is a child who managed to tear her clothes off after the US dropped napalm on them as they fled their village. She was one of the lucky ones.
The fourth is the second atomic bomb the US dropped on a civilian population.
From what perspective is murdering hundreds (hundreds of thousands in the case of Nagasaki) of civilians just trying to live their lives on the other side of the planet acts of self-defense?
Nice spin. The point is that NCD is defense themed and Nato themed, not that the pictures aren’t of atrocities.
NCD is not about “defence” it’s about war and the glorification of weapons used to murder children. At best it’s ironic and incredibly tasteless, more realistically, they’re just a bunch of bloodthirsty fascists hiding behind irony for plausible deniability.
NATO is the largest Imperialist millitary coalition in the world, NCD being NATO focused directly means that it’s focused on celebrating Imperialist atrocities.
In OP are images of what NATO, an organization that has never fought a defensive war in its entire existence, calls defense.
NATO “defence” 🍆 ✊
- The Intercept, 2021: Meet NATO, the Dangerous “Defensive” Alliance Trying to Run the World
- CounterPunch, 2022: NATO is Not a Defensive Alliance
- Noam Chomsky, 2023: NATO “most violent, aggressive alliance in the world”
- Thomas Fazi, 2024: NATO: 75 years of war, unprovoked aggressions and state-sponsored terrorism
- Gabriel Rockhill, 2020: The U.S. Did Not Defeat Fascism in WWII, It Discretely Internationalized It
The same as NAFO: shilling for the MIC
Fetishizing NATO, basically.
a place for chuds to cope
reminds me of how they always try to justify the nuking of japan cities that had hundreds of thousands of civillians (twice even)
Yup, the mental gymnastics they use to justify war crimes. No other country has nuked a civilian population. They’ve nuked 2
Morally the nukes was wrong objectively they saved countless of lives.
This is the lie we’re indoctrinated to believe, yes
Objectively they were used to prevent the Soviets from gaining influence, and forcing Japan into an unconditional surrender, instead of conditional. They didn’t save anyone but US Imperialism.
Reading through the comments I think maybe countries with free healthcare and education dont have a lot of room to weigh in on this.
I am not saying respect the troops or anything. But goddamn
I think maybe countries with free healthcare and education dont have a lot of room to weigh in on this
Why not?
You were the only country to invoke NATO Article 5. Twice. You forced soldiers in countries with free healthcare and education (like Canada) to fight and die in wars you started.
And what does free healthcare and education have to do with anything? Are you going to claim that America “subsidises” us?
I didn’t do shit. I was in high school when that happened. Fuck off. You don’t understand how people get pressured in joining and how recruiters con a bunch of kids to sign up using the lack if health care and education as leverage.
I don’t understand why solders from other countries even join up.
Me me me me me
You argue like a conservative.
I work with a lot of veterans and the thing that breaks my heart is how many of them really bought into the lie. They really think they sacrificed years of their lives, some of them went through hell, all for the people of their country. And when or if they realize that they were used, it can break them.
Many, not all obviously, but many of them are victims of this self-same system of oppression. Taking it out on them is exactly what the people who pull their strings want from us.
No war but class war.
This might get a lot of down votes but I want to say I don’t think it’s fair to blame the soldiers in the field for the choices of the decision makers in the office. Those horrible events were unwanted ‘byproducts’ of the goal of men with evil plans, they were not veterans going off-book. In other words, these veterans did what was asked of them. I’m not saying they didn’t do some very bad things, but they aren’t the people that should be ‘thanked’.
I would much rather see a concerted effort to like not do wars, instead of this overtly obvious attempt to stir the pot.
In the aftermath of World War II, Carl Jaspers formulated in Die Schuldfrage that there are four types of guilt (/responsibility). Criminal guilt, political guilt, moral guilt, and metaphysical guilt. It is a great distinction in general. Yes, political leaders bear a different kind of guilt for the actions than the soldiers, but acting on clearly morally wrong commands do not obliterate guilt from the soldiers. Just like everyone who basically didn’t give their life in pursuit of the good and the right bears some metaphysical guilt for what is happening in the world.
Yes. I wonder what the outcomes of centering the soldiers gult is?
Do we want the solution to be that soldiers have to consider every order given within the historical context of the time to decide the morally correct actions and do them even if it means court martial or death?
Don’t get me wrong. I’m okay for soldiers to do this in extreme examples. But I don’t think this should be the norm.
I think we should shift the focus to the leaders instead of the soldiers. They are better positioned to make these decisions and have the time to do so.
And it’s their job.
Thank you. 18 year old kids who were never given a sufficient education in history, civics, political science, and basic morality can’t be blamed for working as a cook, secretary, nurse, electrician, intel analyst, etc in the military so that they can afford college.
Again - there is and must be a distinction between the blame, responsibility and guilt of an 18 year old uneducated soldier, nurse etc and a political leader. But this does not automatically absolve the former from all responsibility and guilt. You should and hopefully do focus on the latter’s guilt and responsibility, as it is much larger than the others’. Focussing on the people who follow orders is not what I would advertise for and this isn’t the intent, it is actually the exact opposite. By differentiating different aspects and kinds of guilt you have tools and language at hand to talk about it without putting everyone in the same boat.
It is not a black and white issue. Everyone got blood on their hands - you and me included - just in different amounts, in different ways.
Very honestly - I’ve still not read the book entirely and I have started because I felt some feeling of guilt myself for being a Russian living outside Russia. I think that’s actually exactly what Jaspers, along with his students (the book is basically a dialectic lecture written down with results of work of his class from one semester), was trying to figure out. So I am not the best person to lecture you about that.
From as far as I have read these distinctions are exactly what allow people to talk about guilt, responsibility, trauma, the past, etc, without judging everyone by the same standards. Like, a criminal is judged by the court who defines for a crime they committed. A politician who took part in ordering crimes will be judged by the victor of a war. A soldier (just like a secretary) will be judged in dialogue with others and by his conscience for their individual actions, even if they were following orders. And a normal person who looked away or didn’t actively do their best to stop the atrocities that happen in the world, well, this person’s metaphysical guilt can basically only be judged by a metaphysical instance itself, be it God or another undefined transcendence. Basically all of us bear the latter.
They are very distinct and do not have the same repercussions. It is without doubt that political leaders have a much different, much more facetted responsibility for crimes committed. And we should focus on that. But this does not clean the people who followed their orders from all guilt, and their responsibility and crimes (against humanity) will be judged, just in a different way.
Edit: I’ve added a better phrased summary in my original comment above, since I have realized that translating German political philosophy isn’t my strength exactly.
It’s basically impossible not to be a PoS. Wish I was just not born now.
The idea is to consistently work toward being better than yesterday and making restitution, where possible, not where comfortable. It’s not always going to be easy. It’s called character development. If we’ve worked hard for a number of years being of bad character, it’s generally going to take an equal or greater number of years of hard work and restitution to be of great character; but with diligence, I would say perhaps the number of exceptions would be greater than the general rule. It doesn’t mean there will actually be external validation of it, though.
That’s the thing. I will always owe something, and I’m always guilty of something just because I am alive.
I actually was so bothered by this, that I spent years trying to develop a system to get around it.
Lol. I feel that to the core. We all do and all are. And I certainly did try to escape too. I think the main thing is doing our best to minimize any harm and maximize any service to our fellow living beings, understanding that everything is a living being.
Never heard of this, thanks
In other words, these veterans did what was asked of them.
They could just have not.
Ah, the Nuremberg defense. 😶
Nuance matters. You think a 18 year old boy that was brainwashed into nationalisl his entire life should be executed for being forced to serve as a cook in the military? The Nazis used conscription while the US uses economic coercion (gate keeping jobs, healthcare, and college for vets)
I didn’t get the feeling this is what the meme is about, maybe it is. I think your discomfort is good, in that it has you questioning what you may have not questioned, before. On one level, we can’t decide what’s okay for you, internally. The bigger question is, if external forces would compel suffering and death for your beliefs and convictions, are you prepared to accept that? Many of us who think we are may not be, when put into that position, just as many of us who think we aren’t may end up being more certain than we knew. And at that end neither really matters, at all. I think deep introspection will have to be both journey and destination, multiple times in our lifetimes. The questioning is the reward.
should be executed for being forced to serve as a cook in the military?
Sorry, which user was it exactly who said, “Kill every troop?”
No that would be saying they didn’t do anything bad because doing what is asked of you is always good.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superior_orders
Superior orders, also known as just following orders or the Nuremberg defense, is a plea in a court of law that a person, whether civilian, military or police, should not be considered guilty of committing crimes ordered by a superior officer or official.[1][2] It is regarded as a complement to command responsibility.[3]
I’m saying we shouldn’t blame the soldiers on the choices of their leaders, I’m not saying we shouldn’t blame the soldiers for their own choice. I totally agree they could’ve chosen to not to follow orders. I’m not saying they are innocent. But their role is not comparable to the role of the people giving orders.
In German penal law there were discussions on how to treat those that act under orders. Many Germans did act under orders and even in accordance to law in WW2 but also in regard to the Mauerschützen (the soldiers that shot dissidents at the inner German border)- meaning that there were difficulties persecuting them as it was technically legal. There were way too few persecutions, however something called the Radebrechtsche formula was developed. Paraphrasing it says, something that is morally wrong to every morally thinking being cannot be legalized or excused. It is simply illegal to act on orders that are naturally wrong.
I believe the word you want is “prosecute/prosecution” rather than “persecute”, but thanks for this.
Sure, but how many 18 year old boys were convicted for being conscripted into the Wehrmacht?
The US uses economic coercion to force poor kids into joining. They give veterans a massive priority bump for public sector jobs and the GI Bill is often the only way poor kids can afford college.
Also, the US military uses far more obfuscation than the Nazis used. When I was in the Air Force, I worked in geo-spatial intelligence which was mostly extracting heat signatures from satellite collected data. They kept us in the dark on what our intel was being used for. All I knew was that our intel was helping to save the lives of our fellow soldiers somehow and that the government would pay for my college when I was done.
It’s a tricky fucking game they play. More communication amongst ourselves is the only way that could ever be undone.
I’m not going to go refind the examples, but there have been stories about things soldiers do that are definitely not ordered by anyone else. There can be a level of cruelty at times that is completely on the individual and they cannot always hide behind “I was told to”.
O i totally agree, this is exactly why i started with ‘this is might get a lot of downvotes’. But the crimes on the pictures where not crimes by individual soldiers. These things were done by individuals who were told to. I’m not saying that makes them innocent, I’m saying they weren’t the most guilty. The most guilty in my opinion are the men who scheme and think up of plans like this, and then order others to execute it.
If someone did a horrific thing and then told me they weren’t as guilty as their boss I’d be fairly confident saying that if their first priority was to justify their actions then they can also get absolutely fucked.
But not every soldiers’ first priority are justifying their actions. Please note that the title of this post is insinuating that all veterans are to blame, not some or even the majority of them. Also note the title omits the bosses, the people who gave the orders.That is why I replied. We would only disagree if you’d believe the boss isn’t guilty because he didn’t do the execution of his plans.
Abu Ghraib was done by individual soldiers. At least as far as we know, they were not explicitly ordered to do all the things that they did, and when it came to light, several were charged with crimes over it. Furthermore, not a single person at the base blew the whistle on it, it was only because of independent journalists that it came to light.
If we cite war crimes carried out on the initiative of ordinary soldiers, then of course you could claim that it was just those individual soldiers who were responsible. If we cite things that were carried out on a systematic level, then you’ll say it was the leaders who were responsible, not the soldiers. So I have to ask, is there anything that could, theoretically happen that would make it ok to say, “fuck the troops?” What would that have to look like?
You are literally arguing the same as all Nazis did. “I was just following orders”. US military decided to join an organisation that constantly attacks other countries.
This was exactly the take I was looking for. “I was just following orders” is, and has always been, a bad take. Grow a pair and accept the consequences of your poor decision making.
Ahh, yes, the mindless drone argument.
If you think the Things the US did as a democracy we’re Bad Just wait and See what autocracy will bring.
Gonna be interesting who’s gonna suffer more. It’s own population or the others.
usa: summons cthulhu to bring destruction of the universe
people: what if it was a republican, things would be worseThere’s just good and bad. No one’s really “good” good. So there’s just bad. So fuck it all. Putin, Obama, Stalin, Trump, Hitler, Merkel. At least some of them don’t even try to hide it so they’re at least honest. That makes it easy.
Well, you’ve already killed one innocent person, so you can go ahead and kill a million more since you’re already a bad person anyway. Much logic.
Those muslim, fascist and communist authoritarians were really just freedom fighters fighting for their people. America bad.
Unironically yes to all of that except the fascists.
Did fighting Nazis go out of fashion again?
I seem to remember the creator of Wolfenstein asking that question shortly before the release of one of their games, in the late 2000s I think. We should have seen the writing on the wall.
The US was never really that against them. Their motivation in WW2 was not nearly as morally perfect as they like to pretend.
It’s sad how little you personally know about history and the circle jerk of fellow know nothings.
I keep seeing people making this argument in this thread but it’s never backed up by anything, just insults and repeating propaganda. Can you imperialists at least engage with the historical discussions in this thread that you’re pretending not to see?
Before the war, Hitler was inspired by Jim Crow laws when creating the infamous Nuremberg Laws.
After the war - once the US secured unipolar hegemony - they absorbed more than 1500 former SS scientists into the US government.
Birds of a feather
“Protecting freedom” by torturing and bombing people halfway across the world
Praise your “heroes”. It’s enlightening to watch a civilization confuse slaughter with honor.
If we’re assigning blame so broadly, let’s be thorough about it. What about the factory workers assembling weapons? They recognize a gun when they help manufacture it. They understand what tank treads are used for when they connect them. Engineers fully comprehend the lethal applications of their drone designs and technical specifications.
If we’re truly committed to distributing responsibility appropriately, shouldn’t everyone in these production chains bear their share of moral accountability? Or is our outrage selectively applied to those with the least decision-making power in these systems?
Perhaps we should question why our society finds it easier to condemn those with fewer choices rather than examining the entire structure that creates these weapons of war in the first place.
I don’t look at it as thanking them for these things, but rather the fact that we’re all doing those things with our tax dollars and they’re the ones getting shot at because of it in my place. To a large extent if you live in the US and reap the benefits of American dominance you’re just as guilty. Obviously the problem is - where else do you go? It makes infinitely more sense to stay and vote for a better world. Not blame the working class people the bad voters have abused.
It’s not fair to blame the soldiers and act as if the people who gave the leaders their power are innocent.
People got mad at this one streamer for saying American soldiers deserve PTSD. When you consider that most interventions by the US are not justified or just imperial power plays, and that many soldiers commit war crimes, you realize she has a point.
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Ooh poow widdwe Jimmy … you know who didn’t have a choice? the kids whose heads he blew off. I don’t care if he had a choice in going there or not, Jimmy doesn’t deserve a blink of sleep for the rest of his miserable cunting life if he didn’t knowingly miss every single shot.
If the choice is “be an acomplice to the destruction of an entier country and it’s people” and “don’t get a discount code for college”, like, surely we can see that’s not really a good excuse.
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Trading brown people overseas’ lives for your own comfort and livelihood is still- believe it or not- wrong.
Yeah, you are not getting it nor are you trying to. You are ignoring the poverty and indoctrination of children aspects of this in order to jerk off.
“though your path may be set, you can gain as much speed down that path as you would like”
means, even if they had to go to war, they could have missed shots on purpose.
Nobody was “forced” to go to Iraq.
For some reason, people think it’s ok to pull others down to get ahead but only in the context of the military. There are other ways to escape poverty, like selling crack or scamming the elderly. I wonder if you condone those approaches as well because “they didn’t have another choice if they wanted to escape poverty.” I doubt it. But if the victims aren’t people in our own neighborhoods who you can actually see, if it’s dead children on another continent who the news doesn’t talk about, then somehow it’s perfectly fine.
Everyone in that position who chooses to work at McDonald’s or Walmart of Amazon instead of signing up to murder foreigners is a better person than every troop, they are braver, more ethical, more heroic, and more enlightened. The cowards who pull others down to get ahead deserve no respect and no sympathy.
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Nobody forced them to sign up.
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The same is true of selling crack but I’ll criticize that too.
Every US soldier signed up for killing, they deserve whatever they get.
Exactly. When I signed up for the military, it was because I wanted to kill people, and not because I had no other good choices
There are definitely some like that. The American system has a number of tricks to try to force people to do what they like as well though. Poverty, over policing of minorities, lack of social safety nets etc can cause people who grew up barely avoiding prison choosing military thinking the only choices they have are death or military, shoved at them when they’re too young to really know the world. Add education that specifically avoids or lies about what US actually does overseas, plus a bunch of jingoistic propaganda making being a soldier appear to be a respectable profession.
I grew up in a cult that avoided military so I never had those feelings myself, so I got to watch it from the outside, and even the pledge of allegiance every morning was weird jingoistic programming from early ages. It can be difficult to see past that at 17. I’m not saying they don’t deserve any punishment, but I do disagree with the idea that every single one wanted to kill people.
12 year US Army vet, deployed to Iraq 2007-2008.
Number of people I killed: 0
Why? I was a surgical tech. I helped save lives, including local nationals.
But sure. I deserve “whatever I get” for literally signing up to help people.
Cool, you can be a civil doctor too. Glad you fixed up the people who killed for a living.
Re bottom left photo, Phan Thi Kim Phuc was burned by napalm dropped by the Republic of Vietnam Air Force.
