I’ve been using Lemmy for a while now, and I’ve noticed something that I was hoping to potentially discuss with the community.
As a leftist myself (communist), I generally enjoy the content and discussions on Lemmy.
However, I’ve been wondering if we might be facing an issue with ideological diversity.
From my observations:
- Most Lemmy Instances, news articles, posts, comments, etc. seem to come from a distinctly leftist perspective.
- There appears to be a lack of “centrist”, non-political, or right-wing voices (and I don’t mean extreme MAGA-type views, but rather more moderate conservative positions).
- Discussions often feel like they’re happening within an ideological bubble.
My questions to the community are:
- Have others noticed this trend?
- Do you think Lemmy is at risk of becoming an echo chamber for leftist views, a sort of Truth Social, Parler, Gab, etc., esque platform, but for Leftists?
- Is this a problem we should be concerned about, or is it a natural result of Lemmy’s community-driven nature?
- How might we encourage more diverse political perspectives while still maintaining a respectful and inclusive environment?
- What are the potential benefits and drawbacks of having a more politically diverse user base on Lemmy?
As much as I align with many of the views expressed here, I wonder if we’re missing out on valuable dialogue and perspective by not having a more diverse range of political opinions represented.
I’m genuinely curious to hear your thoughts on this.
Reading this thread, i think lemmy has a real problem. There sre a few comments that appear centrist or left-leaning, but the majority of comments are extremely left.
I’m not asking for neo-nazis or far right, just more centrist opinions like in this thread
I’m far left wing, but it’s my philosophy, it don’t exclude the respect and tolerance to others (to certain limits). This is what is really important, a unique truth don’t exist.
Why do we need more centrist opinions? Why is it a problem to have leftists?
Echo chamber and group think… To get the best ideas, all ideas must be considered within reason
All ideas within the centrist sphere have already been considered and mostly discarded by Leftists. You may have had a point if this was a centrist dominated space.
All ideas within the centrist sphere have already been considered and mostly discarded by Leftists.
Very dogmatic approach for what is essentially uncharted territory.
I disagree. Leftist ideas are only “uncharted” in some areas, in most of the world leftist ideas are more common or dominant.
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I find it interesting that some people are saying “the right is this” and “conservatives are that” and then saying horrible things most people would be opposed to. How would you know if you never talk to them and just assume what they think?
I think most people assume the extreme right is the entire right, just like most people assume the extreme left is the entire left. It’s actually a spectrum. Or more accurately, a Nolan chart.
Most people I know are in the center, and they oppose racial segregation, oppose racism, oppose oppression, oppose monopolies, and oppose corrupt officials. But since they are not communists or socialists, some people on the left lump them in with the far right, which the center doesn’t like either.
And if you attack the people in the center by falsely accusing them of being the right, all you are doing is alienating people who might agree with you on a lot of things.
I have spoken to them all, for years. In all shapes and sizes.
They are all driven by fear and tribe mentally. Reality does not matter to them only emotions.
I’m not a communist or socialist btw.
As opposed to you because you are not tribal and never make emotional decisions.
Reducing people like this is itself an emotional defense mechanism. We are fallible to the things you describe. All political bubbles have people who make this same exact claim about all the other bubbles.
There intelligence in recognizing this. Neither you nor I are in the one true bubble.
I’m not tribal at all and non-conformist to a fault. Of course I make emotional decisions - but when presented with clear evidence I can adjust my views as neccessary. I love to be wrong, the entire concept of how right-wingers react to information is so foreign to me I’ve spent years trying to figure out if they’re lying or are they actually believe it. Unfortunately it’s the latter. Giving those eejits air-space only pushes the centrist NPCs who have the same inherent flaws in how they process information to the right.
NPCs? Yikes.
It’s okay they can’t hear us.
Listen to yourself speak and tweak a couple of words to make it a right winger saying it. Perhaps you might realise how similar you sound.
the entire concept of how liberals react to information is so foreign to me I’ve spent years trying to figure out if they’re lying or are they actually believe it.
Sounds exactly like what I’d read on r/conservative.
Well yeah they’re right into projection but doesn’t make it not true does it?
Is the concept not foreign to you? I’m all ears if so please. How do you deny that your guy tried to steal the election when his own VP came out and said it. Ignoring the fact he done it all out in the open blatant af.
You probably have not talked to moderates much. They don’t like talking about politics because they get attacked by both the left and the right. But they are the swing voters, and they oppose the hate they hear everyday.
Moderate conservatives? You’re right they’re normally older techno phones so I don’t. But I know they didn’t put up much resistance to trumps antics. And many were happy to sacrifice reality to own the libs.
I’ve seen the radicalisation of anti authoritarian spaces by the right wing hate machine in real time though. Ancaps in 2006 terms would be leftists today. Classic liberals with economic backgrounds jumping on the MAGA train after being fed the right fake news memes.
All subconsciously which is the worst thing about it.
I said moderates. This includes left-leaning centrists.
My comment was about conservatives so wasn’t clear. Spoken to plenty of moderates.
Liberals are not leftists.
yeah, liberals are conservative scum lol.
liberals are literally on the left wing of the spectrum, but apparently that’s not good enough for ‘arbitrary decider of who’s a leftist’ here
Leftists are socialists. Liberals are not socialists, they are liberals. Liberalism is founded on the right to private property, otherwise known as private ownership of the means of production, while socialists call for the abolition of private property (not to be confused with personal property).
liberals are literally on the left wing of the spectrum
They literally aren’t
Liberals support capitalism, ergo they are on the right.
Liberals are auth right on the political compass.
Leftism is anti-capitalist.
The Political Compass is generally a terrible way to view politics, I wouldn’t put any stock in it.
It’s an oversimplification and has its limitations but that’s often what’s needed to reach mass appeal and be useful in discourse.
On the contrary, it makes little sense at all. Ideologies csn’t be put on a compass like that.
On the contrary, it’s is a useful heuristic, even if it’s not perfect. While ideologies are complex and multifaceted, it provides a framework to map tendencies. It simplifies ideologies, sure- but that’s precisely its value & the social/cultural dimension and is harder to map
When you simplify ideology too much, you ceate more confusion, like elsewhere in the thread when you categorize Marxist means as auth left and ends as lib left, despite Marxism being consistent in means and ends. There are far more issues with it than it solves.
But that’s just it - it’s not a useful heuristic, it’s a delusional framework, even more than the geocentric model was. We were mapping the planets onto that, but that didn’t make it useful.
You have to be at least anti-capitalist to be a leftist. That’s the bare minimum.
Lemmy liberals are centrists. They favor capitalism with regulations and social welfare.
You have to be at least anti-capitalist to be a leftist.
oh I must have missed the “YOU MUST BE AT LEAST THIS ANARCHO-MARXIST TO RIDE THE LEFTIST LABEL” sign at the front of the line.
damn is this really how you think? are these really the thoughts that just bubble up in that grey matter?
way too much time on your hands if so
you’re so fucking busy delineating who’s not a good leftist that the conservatives are going to destroy you all and you’ll be quibbling about who was a real one and who’s faking being in the concentration camp.
It isn’t a purity test, anticapitalism starts at some form of Socislism.
No, liberals just aren’t leftists.
The liberal wants to preserve some parts of the capitalist tradition while enacting some social reforms. That puts them in the center.
You want to talk about concentration camps? The US has the largest incarcerated population in the world, and it has my entire life, since Clinton introduced the Crime Bill. The prison population almost doubled from 1990 to 2000. That’s liberalism.
Yeah, in the interest of not having a bloody, civil war, I’d rather try to correct the economic paradigm that we have rather than instill a new one that will have its own set of unique and terrible problems (for example, see nomenklatura).
The chaos that will arise from the transition will be deadly, terrifying, and profound. It is not something I wish my children to have to go through. So, yeah…of course I’d rather work to fix the system that we have.
Okay, but that’s why you aren’t a leftist.
Personally, the reason I have an .ml account instead of an account on one of the farther left instances which aren’t federated with .world is because I want to argue with people like you. I welcome the diversity of opinion between leftists and liberals, I deliberately expose myself to it. Liberals keep me sharp without being emotionally exhausting the way people farther to the right are.
(for example, see nomenklatura)
We have nomencultura at home, in the Professional Managerial Class: the college educated labor aristocracy that serves the capitalist class.
These are well established political definitions, not something we just up and decided a few days ago. Political position along a left and right axis, defined in the context of the economic present, with a pro- or anti-capitalist stance on either side. “The Left” has more or less been defined by an anti-capitalism - pro-socialism stance for a long time, despite whatever labels some news outlets choose to use to demonize liberals and Democrats. They restrict definitions to the Overton window, just a sliver of the full political spectrum, which is firmly planted rightward, and promote the idea that the left side of the window is “The Left”. It isn’t. Many iberals in America and the democratic party are firmly pro-capitalist. It isn’t that they are good or bad leftists, they just aren’t leftists at all. We aren’t too busy figuring this out, we’ve been clear with these definitions for forever.
But literally, you do need to be anticapitalist to be a leftist.
Where did you learn your stance from? Its wild.
This is the result of a century of communist/socialist purges and of cold war propaganda in the US. Most Burgerstanians haven’t known their asses from their elbows politically for generations.
That’s the problem with labels. They often mean different things to different people.
Yeah, there’s the academic record and then there’s random forum posters. Different meanings, sure: with one worth discarding.
so you’re suggesting, what, exactly?
say I’d observed this trend as well, and agreed there was a risk (I don’t but let’s follow your chain of thinking) - what then?
Because I’m sure there’s a desire for conservatives to have alternatives to reddit, but I as they can federate their own instances and have damn near free reign over whatever communities they want to create, I don’t really understand what’s to be gained from any actions that might be taken. We won’t convince them it’s a conservative haven, and that’s genuinely what they want, a safe space where no one questions their conservatism.
so what is it you’re thinking?
Conservative and/or right wing views are ethically wrong and lack evidence to add a worthy perspective to discussions. Capitalism is a belief and should be discussed as other religions.
lack evidence to add a worthy perspective
That’s exactly the point. “Conservative” most of the time means rollback to segregation and discrimination whereas the only chance of humanity lies within compassion and cooperation.
I think there are some conservative opinions that are worth discussing. For one example, I’ve seen conservatives talk frequently about protecting children from an increasingly secular world. Comparitvely, that topic rarely comes up in normal lemmy topics.
Truth be told, I generally am progressive on this, but I sometimes wish I could discuss this with someone whom I may disagree with, so I could better understand where I would stand
Protecting them from what now? Exactly what are we protecting them from in a ‘secular world’?
I think you provide the perfect example of what OP is talking about.
In my experience this kind of comments and “far left” views are the norm on Lemmy. I think that in this regard Reddit had (I have not been there since the API shutdown) a much more balanced and wide spectra of political views. Not to mention that everything wasn’t political there. Here I feel like everything takes a “far left”/Marxist turn.
To me, this homogenous political environment turns me off and is one of the primary factors behind me not really using Lemmy that much.
To be clear I do not think that your views should be silenced and whatnot. Just agreeing that this is indeed a “far left” echo chamber.
If a view isn’t based on truth, it just simply doesn’t matter. It’s not a matter of silencing
https://fosstodon.org/@bragefuglseth/113809233797180679
This post appeared in my timeline yesterday. Thought I would share it with you.
In my experience this kind of comments and “far left” views are the norm on Lemmy. I think that in this regard Reddit had (I have not been there since the API shutdown) a much more balanced and wide spectra of political views …
redditors (like most americans) proved that they believe a genocide is acceptable political collateral damage and that facism is a good thing; that’s fucked and not at all balanced at all.
I’m not talking about whether the content of an opinion is balanced or not. I’m talking about that if you take into consideration all the different views; are there just a few vs many, are the views leaning heavily in a specific direction (right/left), etc.
And you continue to prove the point that Lemmy has a “far left” overweight. I’ll remind you again that I’m not talking about whether I think you are right or wrong, just that it’s an echo chamber for opinions like this.
And you continue to prove the point that Lemmy has a “far left” overweight. I’ll remind you again that I’m not talking about whether I think you are right or wrong, just that it’s an echo chamber for opinions like this.
genocide is never acceptable and facism is never okay; these are facts, not opinions.
I never alluded to these being ok? I agree with you here
They’re big parts of the American Overton window now; yet you called their consideration
a much more balanced and wide spectra of political views
Not sure what you mean to be honest. What do you mean by “yet you called their consideration”?
What I meant earlier was that the way that you express
redditors (like most americans) proved that they believe a genocide is acceptable political collateral damage and that facism is okay; that’s fucked and not at all balanced in any way.
is (in this case left?) misrepresentation what others (or most other) believe. I don’t know if this is in bad faith or if its because of “echo chamber radicalization”. I do have a hard time believing that “most americans” or “redditors” (as in most redditors?) approve of genocide or facism. They might have other/more nuanced ideas on some issues than you. But for the record I’m not American.
I do believe that you will be able to provide examples of crazy comments on some issues. But in my experience, when you leave the internet and talk to people in real life - most people are sane, moderate and do not hold far left/right opinions on most of the issues discussed like this on the internet.
The facts are so, but reddit and fediverse turns a blind eye to calls of genocide, mass murder and inciting violence when the genocide and fashcism is in the name of “class struggle.”
you’re on the wrong instance
Yeah. Why go through all the effort to cover up the true nature of your actions if your beliefs and views are so much more balanced. While the speech here may be more absolutist, I think other people who don’t factor in these untruths or use them to make their points have much to add to the conversation. It’s just talking points.
Can anyone translate this vaguepost?
I just saw a revised death toll in Gaza. Lots of people have been downplaying this. This is only one example.
To be clear I do not think that your views should be silenced and whatnot. Just agreeing that this is indeed a “far left” echo chamber.
We, just like you, have been bombarded incessantly from birth with the hegemonic bourgeois ideology. It is inescapable. Most people don’t even realize they’re soaking in it, because they’ve never been outside of it. For most people it’s just “common sense.” It’s literally impossible for us to escape to a “‘far left’ echo chamber.”
Who is really in an “echo chamber” those who have seen outside of cultural hegemony, or those who have not?
We don’t cite Gramsci here
We often do. There are 17 pages of hits in the search results: https://lemmy.ml/search?q=gramsci
It pops on on lemmy.ml alone dozens of times: https://lemmy.ml/search?listingType=Local&q=gramsci
The phrase “are ethically wrong” is hilarious. According to whose code of ethics? How are their ethics more moral than someone else’s set of ethics?
There’s literally entire branches of philosophy dedicated to the concept of morals and the concepts of good and evil.
Edit: Also, to add on to this, something can be ethically right but morally wrong, or ethically wrong but morally right.
There appears to be a lack of “centrist”, non-political, or right-wing voices (and I don’t mean extreme MAGA-type views, but rather more moderate conservative positions).
They hang out in /modlog.
- Yes I noticed this too
- It already is, which is a shame
- Yes it’s a problem because even if you try to get a balanced amount of all the views in your Lemmy subscriptions it’s not possible, at the same time bubbles radicalize people.
- Let discussions happen, don’t delete and ban because you’re against the view (as long as it’s not continuously spamming)
- Benefit: You see people as humans even if they are wrong, Drawback: you need to sometimes change your mind in face of new evidence showing up, which it wouldn’t if you stay in your bubble.
The thing which I really dislike with a bubble is that people inside of it get more and more radical and ban even their allies because they’re not radical enough.
MAGA is a perfect example. On a national stage even! Hey, where’s that Pence guy?
Given the recent right wing takeover of other social media sites and the glorification of hate speech I am fine not seeing that bullshit spread here.
This is bad for the health of lemmy though, I think. A discussion board/framework should be politically neutral, while still employing rules on hate speech based on the voice of the masses.
If you want to talk hate speech, I’ve seen numerous accounts on lemmy instances of people advocating for murder or other violence against “billionaires” or anyone with a significant wealth. Or same with right-wing ideals, I’ve seen users advocating similar broad calls for violence based on pretty poor assumptions against the entire right-wing USA block.
If someone wanted to make a well-formed right wing argument I doubt they’d get too much backlash. But it’s all bigotry and lies and conspiracy theories at this point so they get shitcanned.
Fighting back against the ultra wealthy who are killing our people and our planet is not the same as punching down on minorities who are just trying to exist.
there’s no such thing as politically neutral
I am an independent and politically nonbinary, but people like assuming, almost always incorrectly, what I am thinking. The people on the right think I am left, and the people on the left think I am right. Apparently it is all relative, and the attitude of “if you disagree with me, you must be evil” is way too prominent, both on the left and the right.
I like listening to a variety of viewpoints because I can learn something new about human nature, even if I disagree with their opinion. It allows me to spot patterns that others don’t see.
It also allows me to better understand and respond to flawed thinking and dangerous ideas. For example, giving power to someone who is power-hungry is dangerous, no matter what propaganda they are spouting. And there are opportunists and snakes in the grass all over the political spectrum. Just because they say the right things does not mean they do the right things. People don’t always like it when that is pointed out. They confuse the leader for the cause.
The problem with remaining in an information bubble surrounded by like-minded people is that you start assuming that everyone thinks like you, which is usually not true at all. Both the right and the left fall into this trap sometimes. And people who have not experienced other cultures also fall into this trap. It creates an unrealistic and inaccurate view of the world. It also results in a shock when they realize that people on the other side of the world or from a different background think completely differently than they do.
It is one of the reasons why the Democrats lost the election in the U.S. They assumed they were the majority because they surrounded themselves with people who agreed with them and they repeatedly blocked or canceled anyone who disagreed. As a result, they shifted further and further away from what the people wanted, abandoned the working class, embraced unpopular views, and then wondered why they lost the swing voters, thereby giving the election to their arch enemies.
Cultivating and remaining in an information bubble is like shooting yourself in the foot and blaming the other side. The more you isolate yourself, the less reach your ideas have, and the less influence you have over society.
To be frank, some people are actually hoping both the far left and the far right becomes increasingly isolationist. It would mean they disappear from the mainstream consciousness since they silence themselves by blocking anyone who disagrees with them. That way they talk to themselves instead of bothering the mainstream middle, who are the actual majority.
The fact is, you don’t hear much from the people in the middle because they get attacked from both the right and the left, and most people don’t like the drama. Instead, they just go to the ballot box and vote against the politicians they don’t like.
In an idea world, we could talk about the issues and come up with some non-partisan solutions. But society has become so polarized, I am not sure that is even possible anymore.
This is everything I wanted to say and it’s why I’ve started going back to reddit to get some different viewpoints. This echo chamber is intellectually unhealthy.
This sounds like some kind of an enlightened centrist take.
Educate me though, can you briefly describe your political philosophy?
@mortemtyrannis It is pretty simple, really. Don’t screw over other people.
So that means I am against big business, monopolies, unfair trade practices, surveillance capitalism, hoarding wealth, etc.
I am also against big government, corrupt officials, police brutality, law enforcement overreach, government surveillance, tyranny, and dictators.
I think we should have free speech, but at the same time, I don’t think we should allow harassment, doxing, slander, libel, or intimidation.
I think that people should get paid fairly based on what they contribute. Contribute more, get paid more. I also think that there should be a safety net for people who are struggling.
I think that we should have health care reform, but I don’t like the choices that are being presented. Option 1: big business and big health care. Option 2: a government monopoly on health care. There is a middle route where you get rid of both big government and big business in health care. It would require some fundamental changes on how we handle health care, however.
I think we need less big business and less big government, and more small cooperatives, small businesses, and small non-profits. Smaller entities means it is closer to the people and they can chose who they want to deal with. Regardless of whether it is private, non-profit, or government-run, if you only have 5 choices or less, you really don’t have much of a choice at all. Because if you have less than 5 major players, they all start to collude to keep policies and practices in place that benefit them and not the consumers or taxpayers.
I can go on. I may be an independent and politically non-binary, but I do have principles.
Word
Given how likely right wing conservatives tends to spread misinformation and cite low quality sources, I honestly don’t mind the lack of right wingers.
There appears to be a lack of “centrist”
“Progressive” liberals in fact the centrists—they’re center-left at best—and there are plenty of them here.
right-wing voices (and I don’t mean extreme MAGA-type views, but rather more moderate conservative positions)
These people are liberals as well, but because they usually break Lemmy’s code of conduct regarding various bigotries, they get usually quickly the boot.
non-political
Everything social is political, and the fediverse is social media.
These people are liberals as well
Linking to the general page for liberalism instead of classical liberalism when talking about right wingers… huh sloppy
Not counting lemmygrad and hexbear most of lemmy instances is completely liberal, at best radical liberal. I seriously doubt your statement about being communist if you call for more centrism and think we need more rightwing info.
You want more rightwing? Go anywhere else in the internet, there’s full of it everywhere. What is lacking everywhere else, is communist point of view.
Discussions often feel like they’re happening within an ideological bubble.
While this can be true for some communities, I find that users here do still engage with other viewpoints when the discussions are in good faith.
I think the reason why a lot of users lean in a certain political direction is because of
- the origins of Lemmy
- users that choose to leave the older platforms may have done so for social / political reasons
- threadiverse is still relatively small
Do you think Lemmy is at risk of becoming an echo chamber for leftist views, a sort of Truth Social, Parler, Gab, etc., esque platform, but for Leftists?
I feel like we’re getting more politically diverse over time. It’s only a risk if we force a certain political leaning through moderation.
Is this a problem we should be concerned about, or is it a natural result of Lemmy’s community-driven nature?
Worth keeping an eye on to see how it changes over time
How might we encourage more diverse political perspectives while still maintaining a respectful and inclusive environment?
Mainly moderation. If a community or space is intended for a particular group, it’s perfectly fine to moderate how you see fit. If it is meant to be a general space, try to limit political biases when moderating and focus on bad faith comments.
If a post/comment was in good faith, it’s more effective to let someone explain why it is wrong rather than removing it. Chances are that others can learn from the explanation (or that they were correct to begin with, and you’ll learn something)
What are the potential benefits and drawbacks of having a more politically diverse user base on Lemmy?
The benefits are easy, I can’t think of many drawbacks. Maybe:
- More people = higher moderation costs (which can be dealt with by having bigger teams)
- More drama (we have drama already)
Yes it’s very important to accommodate genocide and climate denialism. 🙄
Theres tons of calls to violence from the auth left. Kill all ceos, kill all landlords etc.
That’s just the left, lol
Have you spent any time at other places on the Internet?
