• Dessalines@lemmy.ml
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    5 days ago

    Cowbee constantly proving that anti-communism relies on ignorance and bigotry, and the correct way to counter it is to soberly repeat the facts about existing or previously existing communist states, removing the accumulated moss piled on year after year by liberal / capitalist-controlled media and educational institutions.

    • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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      5 days ago

      I really do believe that it’s the best way, and I believe that’s precisely why it seems to make people more upset. When reactionaries can’t effectively counter what you’re saying, and cannot dismiss you based on civility, they reach sharp contradictions between what they believe to be true and what they are seeing running against that. This causes stark reaction as the only way to cope.

      Just what I’ve noticed.

  • Athena5898@lemmy.ml
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    6 days ago

    Cowbee genuinely helped me unpacked some shit and helped me to learn and grow in a way I haven’t done since I first realized I wasn’t the only one tired of the system.

      • ジン@quokk.au
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        6 days ago

        Rather overly optimistic communist at that. Told me to study up on communist theory without ever engaging with my best points. Talks a lot, says very little.

        • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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          5 days ago

          What points did I not address? I agree that I’m more optimistic than you were, but I don’t believe that’s without base. I could describe you as overly pessimistic.

        • Juice@midwest.social
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          6 days ago

          If you repost your arguments I will try and answer them. I have mucho respect for Cowbee but he is just one comrade. I’ve gotten into it with him over a few disagreements, one time that stands out to me he accused me of being an imperialist stooge or something.

          If that was my only encounter with him I’d have a negative view of him too, but luckily we’ve had lots of really good conversations too. We are both Marxists but come from different traditions so that can create a little friction. Despite that I believe he is someone who does real work beyond his commitment to educating himself and people he meets online. That practical basis makes all the difference in people imo. Even the best groups suffer from internal contradictions, and we all gotta learn from somewhere.

          Try and give people a break. Also I’ve found that sometimes people with a lot of questions are able to ask every question except the one thing that is bugging them, and its hard for us to really suss that out and make the askers feel as though their question has been heard and addressed. Asking questions is really hard, especially concerning social movements whose core principles are suppressed by the media, and whose history has been distorted and misconstrued in order to make the colonizers and exploiters appear blameless for their role in violence.

          But seriously if you have any questions about history/socialism/marxism you’d like to work through, I’d be happy to try and address them.

          • ジン@quokk.au
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            6 days ago

            I have zero arguments worth reposting sorry. It just took a long time to clarify my ‘moderately conservative communist’ label. Despite the downvote tally, I have zero beef with him or any other comrade. It was a comment of humor that has been greatly misinterpreted i think

            • Juice@midwest.social
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              6 days ago

              What a trip.

              I responded with what I thought the actual miscommunication was about, after reading over the thread that you were supposedly referring to.

              Maybe it helps point you in some worthwhile direction.

        • Athena5898@lemmy.ml
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          6 days ago

          I think you might have some things to work on. I wish you well on the journey of self discovery

        • chloroken@lemmy.ml
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          6 days ago

          Well? Did you study up in communist theory, or are you content always getting dunked on?

          Also, please link us the thread where Cowbee “ignored your best points” so we can take a look at it. I’m curious to see what you’re talking about. I suspect you’re lying.

          Edit: https://lemmy.world/comment/23871382

          Sigh, Cowbee painstakingly engaged with you, displayed patience and empathy and kindness, and this is the route you went. Reading your comments, you’re completely and utterly clueless. You would do well to stop throwing mud at people who take time to help you parse your scattered “ideology” and instead do some reading and shut the fuck up.

          • ジン@quokk.au
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            6 days ago

            As stated earlier, my best points were essentially ignored. If that’s what ‘getting dunked on’ means, I’m beyond fine with it lol

            I don’t know how this is mud throwing when he describes himself as an optimist and at the same time was the ‘clueless one’ on what a moderately conservative communist stands for.

            I love your take though, especially the ‘parse your scattered ideology’ bit, that was hilarious. I believe Cowbee has been clued in on my perspective despite my own cluelessness haha

            Thank you for linking the comment thread for me.

            • Juice@midwest.social
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              6 days ago

              I read through the thread linked above. You are confusing “conservationism” with “conservative” Like we have to conserve, and so we should be “conservative”. Not a terrible mix up.

              In any case, the debate on the left is:

              Planned degrowth vs. Eco-modernism.

              And I think it is correct to prefer a strategy of conservationism, that is degrowth, vs " keep building “productivity” which is eco-modernism.

              If in fact you are more attracted to the degrowth model, look into Jason Hickel. if you wanna research the other side, or feel affinity toward eco-modernism, you might check out Leigh Phillips. Here’s a primer for the debate.

            • calmblue75@lemmy.ml
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              6 days ago

              I read through your thread with Cowbee that chloroken had listed and am still confused what you mean by a moderately conservative communist means. Can you elaborate why you choose to describe a communist, essentially a person who wants to bring change, as conservative, which means to oppose change?

              • ジン@quokk.au
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                6 days ago

                The thread already highlights this, but the target of the change dictates the label.

                You are assuming capitalism is the steady baseline and communism is the disruption. But in reality, global capital is the true revolutionary force. It constantly tears apart the planet, destroying ecosystems just to keep expanding. It is insanely radical.

                So if capital is the radical disruption, then what does it mean to be a conservative? ‘oppose change’ certainly doesn’t cover it or much of anything at all. It means you want to conserve the basic conditions of life against this chaos. I am a communist because it takes a radical break to stop capital, but I am a conservative because the whole point is to defend the physical world from its destructive progress. Communist means, conservative ends.

                I feel like your true definition of ‘change’ means ‘movement toward liberation’ if you could only be more specific. If a train is heading towards a cliff, hitting the brakes is conservative in the literal sense, but it is also the only sane and radical thing to do. You need a revolutionary tool (communism) to apply the brakes, but the goal is ultimately conservative (keeping the train from crashing).

                • calmblue75@lemmy.ml
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                  6 days ago

                  Conservative doesn’t mean what you think it does. Conservative means not changing the state at all. Capitalism is the status quo. Communism is something new, something untried, that resolves to break the status quo. Conserving the environment means to stop whatever actions we are doing to change it. Usually people mean stopping the destructive actions towards the environment, so it has eventually come to mean saving the environment/biodiversity, etc. That still doesn’t change the meaning of the word conservative, which means upholding the prevailing state of things.

                  If a train is heading towards a cliff, hitting the brakes is conservative in the literal sense

                  Using your example, letting the train run is conservative, and hitting the brakes to stop it (changing the state) is radical.

        • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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          5 days ago

          Can you explain what I’ve posted that’s fanfiction? I won’t deny that I often copy and paste replies I’ve already written, as most topics discussed aren’t genuinely new and I’ve usually discussed them before and see no need to artisinally craft each response, but I do take the allegations of fan-fiction seriously. Do you have an example?

            • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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              5 days ago

              I’d believe it if I were a bystander, povoq is doing this extremely well if he wants to validate my points uncontested.

          • poVoq@slrpnk.net
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            5 days ago

            Almost all state sponsored or (worse) self-serving “theory” from AES is fan-fiction and has little to do with reality for obvious reasons. The same is of course usually true for so called economic theory from liberal capitalist states.

            • RiverRock@lemmy.ml
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              5 days ago

              Marxist theory is unconnected to reality, yet Marxists have historically been so good at understanding and changing reality that you complain about that too🤔

              • poVoq@slrpnk.net
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                5 days ago

                Marxist theory in so far as it was actually written by Marx and marxists (as opposed to marxist-leninists, a deviant offshot that is mainly just post-hoc justifications for people that ursuped state power for personal gain), is largely in agreement with anarchist theory and most of what Marx wrote in his younger days was summaries and borderline plagiats of earlier anarchist and socialist thinkers. It has some flaws, especially in regards to materialism though, and Marx himself became a reactionary after having a fallout with people that showed him the flaws in his arguments.

                • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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                  5 days ago

                  Lenin wrote his most critical theory before the Bolsheviks succeeded in establishing socialism, for example, Imperialism, the Current Highest Stage of Capitalism was published in 1916, and built on his previous studies of imperialism via the Marxist method. Marxism-Leninism is the living Marxism carried forward to the era of imperialism, and is not a deviation from Marxism but a continuation of it. Marx never became a reactionary, it was the anarchist faction that failed to counter Marx and was thus expelled from the First International. Marx has no weaknesses with respect to materialism as far as I know.

                  It would help your points tremendously if you gave any examples of the flaws Marx supposedly has, or the ways Marxism-Leninism is a deviation, rather than a continuation. Instead, this seems to follow your strategy of subjectivism, just labeling things you don’t like as counter-revolutionary without critically analyzing them. If you could verbalize how and why you disagree with Marxism-Leninism and Marxism, it would help your arguments enormously, as it stands there’s 0 chance you’re convincing anyone here, who already largely agrees with Marxism-Leninism, or anyone looking on who can see the MLs bring receipts while you refuse to provide any.

            • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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              5 days ago

              What “obvious reasons?” The fact that socialist theory and history from socialists actually building socialism happens to back up their reasoning in most cases? There’s also critique and discussion of problems in existing socialism coming from AES countries as well. This is an utterly self-defeating argument that only validates those most removed from the actual practice of building socialism.

              Again, to stress, your point is that we should inherently distrust those building socialism in real life, and only accept theory from those that are utterely disengaged from practice.

              Further, there’s no critical examination of the merits of socialist theory and history produced by socialist countries on your part, the very fact that they are produced by the people actively building socialism is enough to discredit them in your views. Can you not see the logical trap? If you succeeded in building socialism and spoke about your experiences, successes, and failures, you would have to discredit yourself as fanfiction!

              Should the merit of theory not be tested through practice?

              • poVoq@slrpnk.net
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                5 days ago

                Lol, you seriously think that the self-serving texts of counter-revolutionaries that ursurped control of the state are in any shape or form trustworthy? How removed from praxis and reality can you be?

                • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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                  5 days ago

                  I think the texts written by socialists building socialism are valuable insights into the actual struggles run into when building socialism. I also believe labeling them “counter-revolutionaries” without demonstrating how and why this is the case is an entirely ineffective means of argument, I’ve already made it clear that I consider socialist states to be real, and I back up those claims with historical and theoretical evidence when needed. Simply saying “no” is not an argument, and telling me I’m removed from praxis and reality when I know this isn’t the case is naked Ad Hominem.

        • Count042@lemmy.ml
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          6 days ago

          You literally supported Rhodesia.

          You don’t get to make moral arguments that anyone takes seriously and you sure don’t get to criticize others arguments. Yours led you to support Rhodesia.

          • poVoq@slrpnk.net
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            6 days ago

            Lol, you continue to make up funny stories that have nothing to do with reality. I never “supported Rhodesia”.

              • poVoq@slrpnk.net
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                6 days ago

                I don’t support any government, but I recognize the right of the Ukranian people to defend themselves against imperial aggression.

                And you specifically should be very careful about calling other people “fash” given your long history of supporting authoritarian state-capitalist regimes or worse.

                • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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                  5 days ago

                  Do the people of Donetsk and Luhansk have a right to defend themselves against the Banderite regime in Kiev? That’s what the modern war spiraled out from, a Banderite coup spilling into a civil war.

                  As for state capitalism, I don’t support Singapore or the Republic of Korea. I support socialist market economies and socialist planned economies, as I support socialism in general, and there’s a wide gulf between state capitalism and socialism when it comes to which class is on top.

                • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆@lemmy.ml
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                  6 days ago

                  Oh, but you do support a government in tangible terms because you support the war the regime is fighting and the atrocities it commits against its people. The regime literally kidnaps people off the street and forces them into fighting. You’ve openly stated many times that you support continuation of the war and that you stand on the side of a openly fascist regime. That makes you a fascist.

                  Also, imagine being over the age of 13 and using terms like authoritarian. 🤡

                  The term authoritarianism is utterly meaningless because all governments rely on coercion to maintain their authority. The state is fundamentally an instrument that’s used by the ruling class to maintain its dominance. The whole notion that political systems can be neatly categorized into authoritarian or democratic binaries is deeply infantile.

                  The reality is that every government derives its authority from its monopoly on legal violence. The ability to enforce laws, suppress dissent, and maintain order is derived from control over police, military, and judicial systems. Whether a government is labelled authoritarian or democratic, the fundamental basis of its power lies here. Therefore, the only meaningful questions to ask are which class interests it represents, and to what extent can it be held accountable to them.

                  What ultimately matters is which class controls the institutions of state violence. In capitalist democracies, the government represent the interests of the economic elites who fund political campaigns, own media outlets, and control key industries. Western public lacks the mechanisms necessary to hold the government to account, and the ruling class is disconnected from the broader population. That’s precisely what’s driving political discontent all across western sphere today. Meanwhile, in so-called authoritarian regimes, the ruling party serves the working class as seen in countries like China, Cuba, or Vietnam. Hence why there is widespread public trust in these government and they enjoy broad support from the masses.

                  To add to that, the whole idea of state capitalism is a misnomer. It basically says that while you have state owned enterprise, the internal capitalist relations within it remain largely the same. While that’s true, there is a fundamental difference here. Capitalism is a system where people who own capital hire workers to exploit there labor with the purpose of increasing their capital. The goal of capitalist enterprise is to create wealth for the owners with any social benefits being strictly incidental. On the other hand, the purpose of state enterprise is to provide social value. Workers in state owned companies are producing things that the society needs. They are working for their own benefit and those of others around them. Therefore, the nature of work itself is fundamentally different from actual capitalism.

                  I guess I shouldn’t be expecting much from somebody who equates a socialist state where means of production are publicly owned with fascism.

                • RiverRock@lemmy.ml
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                  6 days ago

                  the Ukranian people to defend themselves against imperial aggression.

                  The Ukranian people want an end to the war, and it’s only the US imperial puppet regime the live under that has decided to aggressively kidnap them into vans at gunpoint instead.

                  Full support to the brave Ukranians who kill draft officers.

                • m532@lemmy.ml
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                  6 days ago

                  authoritarian state-capitalist regimes

                  Dictionary: libspeak to english

                  non-western socialist governments

      • Dremor@lemmy.world
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        6 days ago

        Communism by itself isn’t bad, nor is capitalism, but both assume that their proponents are immune to greed, and that their opponent are full of it.

        There are good things in both, bad things in both. The problem is to find people that are truly altruistic, and that have the moral fortitude to stay altruistic.

        • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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          5 days ago

          Capitalism doesn’t assume anything, it wasn’t thought of and created, it arose from the commodification of production and distribution towards the end of feudalism. It arose naturally, without a plan. Communism isn’t a “plan” either, Marx analyzed where capitalism was necessarily trending towards and saw that as production was socializing, profits were remaining private, creating sharper contradictions and crisis. Communism socializes the profits of production and distribution, and finishes capitalism’s socialization process.

          Neither of them are built on any assumptions surrounding greed whatsoever.

        • calmblue75@lemmy.ml
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          6 days ago

          Heavily disagree, friend. Capitalism by itself is bad. It may have good things, but that hardly justifies the inhuman and cruel roots it stands on. Capitalism does not assume that its proponents should be free of greed, it wants them to be greedy. Why the hell would you want to keep expanding your money if not for greed? Capitalism runs on this principle of self expanding value and inequal exchanges. It strives for profit, nothing else. I haven’t studied communism well enough, but communism doesn’t assume it’s proponents to be immune to greed, it dismantles the institutions by which greed operates(money, class, and state).

        • orca@orcas.enjoying.yachts
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          6 days ago

          Can you list the good parts of capitalism? If you say the free market, capitalism doesn’t have a monopoly on that concept. Socialism and communism have free market aspects too, but they centralize control of resources so that 5 people can’t drain everything and ascend to the top.

          • Dremor@lemmy.world
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            6 days ago

            Both having a form of free market doesn’t make it suddenly good for one side and bad for the other.

            Some sort of free market is good, so new idea can brew, some of them being one day attempted, other won’t because it ends up either not getting traction, or would very obviously fail after some research.

            Problem is with too much planning is that it doesn’t give as much place for innovation, as well as put too much weight on a single point of failure. That played a good part in the USSR famines, like the holodomor, which was then further aggravated by their unwillingness to admit they fucked up, blaming it on other factors. But if they had learned from their mistakes, it would have improved, but unfortunately those very same error were repeated multiple time (see the multiple famines the USSR faced while strangely their western counterparts did not.

            And I’ll pass on the other similar failures (Chernobyl, among other), that follow the very same pattern.

            Of course, the USSR had some very clear wins, like the first part of the race to space, and others.

            The USSR could have been a success if their leader weren’t selfish idiots, which os a shame since I’d rather live in a good cummunism regime than a good capitalism regime.

            I always worked toward such ideals, I contributed to some open-source project (Gnome, KDE, mostly translation, bug report, but also some packaging for OpenSUSE and Fedora.

            I’m a bit tired of those who blindly follow ideologies without having the intellectual honesty to recognize where said ideology fucked up and where it was great. Do I have to be called a social-traitor for every reflection on communism or socialism? I doubt Marx would be happy to see those he tried to enlighten sheepishly follow whoever yell the loudest… Even if they yell parta of what he tried to teach them.

            • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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              5 days ago

              You’re contradicting yourself a bit. You reference capitalism as being good for innovation, but then reference the technological advances the soviets made, beating the US into space. You say the Soviets didn’t learn from the 1930s famine, but it was the last famine outside of wartime in the Soviet Union.

              It’s also a blunder to blame all problems on leadership. The USSR was run collectively, and the leadership was not uniquely “stupid,” they were in general very competent. They were also not especially selfish. Some leaders were better or worse than others, but the Soviet Union was run by the mass proletariat, with the CPSU as the organized element.

            • ZeroHora@lemmy.ml
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              6 days ago

              But if they had learned from their mistakes, it would have improved, but unfortunately those very same error were repeated multiple time (see the multiple famines the USSR faced while strangely their western counterparts did not.

              What other famine after holodomor? I can only think of one but was during siege from the nazis.

              • Dremor@lemmy.world
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                6 days ago
                • 1921-1922 (Povolzhye, or Volga famine), 5-10 millions dreath
                • 1932-1933 (Holodomor), 3.5 to 7 millions death in Ukraine alone
                • 1930-1933 (Asharshylyk), 1.5 million deaths (seem small, but that was 40% of then Kazakhstan population)
                • 1932-1933 (at the same time than the Holodomor, but in Russia) : 1 to 2 millions deaths
                • 1946-1947: 1 to 1.5 millions deaths

                And that’s only those who were big enough to be impossible to hide completely.

                All of them have something in common: the central government minimised them, and tried to hide them. Some weren’t even acknowledged until after the USSR fall. All of them are a combination of bad luck (war, drought) combined with hasty decisions which made what could have been a hard year a generational disaster.

                • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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                  5 days ago

                  You’re referring to a famine at the outset of the USSR coming from civil war, referring to the 1930s famine as 3 separate famines, and blaming the famine caused by Nazi invasion on the Soviets. There’s good reason that’s all you have to bring up.

                • AntiOutsideAktion@lemmy.ml
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                  5 days ago

                  Question: “what famines occurred because the Soviets didn’t learn from the 1933 famine?”

                  Answer: A famine from -before- that famine, the famine you’re being asked to name one after, TWO OTHER FAMINES THAT HAPPENED THE SAME YEAR, and the one that happened because the fucking nazis invaded

                  What a mixture of bad faith and just plain stupid

                • BrainInABox@lemmy.ml
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                  5 days ago

                  So, to summarize, there was exactly one famine after the 32-33 one, and it came immediately after the USSR was devastated by ww2

                • حمید پیام عباسی@crazypeople.onlineOP
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                  6 days ago
                  • 4 million dead in the Bangal Famine caused by the British in 1943
                  • 1 million people died in a drought in the Sahel region
                  • 1.5 Million died in Bangladesh from floods in 1974
                  • 1 million died in Ethiopia famine between 1983- 84
                  • 70,000 people died in 1998 in Sudan from Famine
                  • 2.7 million people died in the Second Congo War between 1998 - 2004 mostly from starvation and disease

                  All have something in common: The capitalist core ignored people, caused wars or restricted economic at their periphery and let millions them die.

                  The death toll by the capitalist empires are way higher and going way more recent in history.

        • pineapple@lemmy.ml
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          6 days ago

          nor is capitalism

          hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

        • emergencyfood@sh.itjust.works
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          6 days ago

          Neither capitalism nor communism assume that their proponents are immune to greed. Capitalism was developed as an improvement over (European) feudalism and mercantilism. The idea is that division of labour expands the quantity and diversity of goods that can be produced. Communism is similarly supposed to be an improvement on capitalism. Here, the idea is that centralised planning can improve the distribution of the produced goods (and further improve the quantity and diversity of goods).

        • SapphironZA@sh.itjust.works
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          6 days ago

          I would argue capitalism is bad in nature, but people confuse free markets as being inherit to capitalism, which it is not.

          Capitalism at its core is about ownership, in that those with money own a thing and thus make the decisions. This results in an Oligarchy controlling the market.

          Communism in contrast is about collective ownership in that those that produce, own and make the decisions. However in practice, that ownership get usurped by “the state” which basically translates to an oligarchy through control of the market.

          This is why I like the term, free market socialism. Ownership should be held by the producers, but the state should not control the market. The role of government in the market should be limited to monopoly prevention.

          • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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            5 days ago

            Ownership by the socialist state is the only way to actually collectivize production and distribution, and thereby end class society and the basis of the state. Ownership at a societal level is the solution, not at the level of individual producers. What you are creating is a form of cooperative-based economy that replicates the larger problems with capitalism, and prevents the transition to classless society run to fulfill the needs of everyone.

          • emergencyfood@sh.itjust.works
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            6 days ago

            The state ownership of production is deliberate, and aimed at improving efficiency and allowing forward planning. One (or a few, if you want competition) large factory is more efficient than a bunch of smaller workshops. State ownership can lead to corruption, as you pointed out, but it is a conscious choice and not happenstance.

            • SapphironZA@sh.itjust.works
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              6 days ago

              I would argue that state facilitation is superior to state control.

              A small government that does not interfere with the initiative of individuals and groups.

              You don’t need central control and orchistration when you have our level of communication technology. That’s only required when your communication channels are limited.

              The state at national level should be limited to providing facilitation, infrastructure, defence and foreign policy. Independent Local governments should provide the bulk of public services.

              I trust collective decision making a lot more than central decision making for optimising a system.

              • emergencyfood@sh.itjust.works
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                6 days ago

                State ownership has both advantages and disadvantages; I just wanted to point out that it was a deliberate choice.

                The state at national level should be limited to providing facilitation, infrastructure, defence and foreign policy. Independent Local governments should provide the bulk of public services.

                What do you do when some regions are poorer than others, or one gets hit by a natural disaster? Again, it isn’t black and white. There are advantages to both centralisation and devolution.

                • SapphironZA@sh.itjust.works
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                  6 days ago

                  I agree never a one size fits all situation. I do not have much confidence in central planning, since that has the longest track record in failure. Both in governments and in corporations.

                  A natural disaster would be handled by regional or national disaster response agencies. Much like it is now in western countries.

                  Regarding wealth or resource imbalance between poorer and richer areas, this is where I think the current status quo is the problem. Since after the industrial revolution, the high productivity of cities has been subsidizing the wealth of the suburbs and rural areas to the significant detriment of overall productivity.

                  We need to rethink the infrastructure standards outside of cities. Right now the suburb sprawl of single homes with large yards, malls and massive parking lots and roads are utterly unsustainable.

                  Its are hampering the productive capacity, food quality and security provided by rural land. What this looks like is a lot like older european villages. People live relatively densely surrounded by farmland and pasture. Car ownership is low since you can walk or bike anywhere, or there is a tram or bus to where you need to go. I would also point out that much of this infrastructure was developed and maintained locally with little to no central government.

                  Once you stop the subsidization and change the role to be something more sustainable, you will find that the wealth and productive density per person will balance according to the inherit environmental factors to a much larger degree.

                  I also want to highlight is that a lack of central control and planning does not prevent collaboration and coordination from occuring between entities. Our modern communication technology makes this possible to a degree that the founders of socialism and communism could never have anticipated.

                  Much like industrialization has changed the world order, the communication revolution has done the same. The political and economic sciences are still playing catchup.