'Bout time.
- a Go fan.
Tabs exist specifically for spacing out stops. They’re viewer-configurable, avoiding holy wars about 4 or 8 or that one idiot suggesting 3.
I do not give a shit if your seventeen-argument function has the overflow variables line up exactly with the paren. Just put them one step further in.
I just remembered the dumbest argument I’ve ever suffered about this - someone insisting the “length” of one tab changed, depending on what’s before it. As in, is it eight spaces, or seven? Or six! It only goes up to eight spaces! No. It goes one stop. The same way a newline goes one line, and cannot by measured by how many times you’d slap the spacebar to get text to wrap around to the next line.
Err, why would there ever be something besides a tab before a tab? Are we doing ASCII art?
They mean if you insert a tab after some other text.
Word processors and desktop publishing apps tend to have tab stops (sometimes visible in a ruler at the top of the page) and pressing tab goes to the next tab stop. They’re about an inch apart (assuming letter or A4 paper) by default, and you can usually also add your own tab stops. For example, you might have text like this:
Hi HelloAssuming the next tab stop is to the right of both words, pressing tab at the end of each one would actually bring you to the same indentation level:
Hi | Hello |Text editors and IDEs don’t do that, and instead make all tabs the same size regardless of where they are.
Some people want the word processor implementation in text editors though. The comment you replied to is saying that’s dumb, and I agree with them.
Your ide should align things how you configure them to be aligned. Nothing says all my tabs need to be the same length.
Maybe it is time for another civil war.
It’s pronounced “GIF”.
Hell no! It’ll be “GIF” until the day I die!
I know it’s a joke but I prefer the tab option. It’s easy to convert tabs to any particular spacing or code point width. It can also vary, if wanted, based on terminal or editor type.
People with worse eyesight can have a wider indentation while those who choose can opt for something more compact
Honestly I always preferred tabs for indentation and spaces for aligning. It doesn’t break anyone’s experience. And if somebody wants two spaces for indentation and other people prefer four. That will work just fine.
I hate seeing 2 space indents. Unreadable AF ( to me ). At least this way I can easily work in the same codebase without somebody being annoyed ( except for the crying about the tabs )
Why not tabs for both indentation and alignment? (Actually, I see indentation as just a specific use of alignment.) Word processors have been doing it for decades (and typewriters for over a century!). Surely we can convince our code processors to use user-definable, fixed position tabs instead of relative position “tab = x spaces”.
Keeping the [TAB] character in the file then allows everyone the layout they like.
Or has working solo for 40 years fried my brain?
What I mean with tab = x spaces is only visually and not actually ( there will ( obviously) still be a tab character in my preference. Not sure if that was clear.
Because alignment are fixed characters compared to indentation. For indentation the only question is how many characters the next indentation needs to be.
For alignment it is not fixed. As an example of PHP code:
function test(&obj) { $obj->doSomething() ....->doSomethingElse() }The dots would be spaces because in IDEs people generally use a font where every character is equally wide.
If I would tab again instead of spaces it could work out if my tab length display is ( for one or more ) adds up to the width of the variable
$obj. If somebody else has a tab width of 2 rather than somebody who has 3. It would only align for one of the two people.Does make sense? I typed it out after a gym session on my phone.
Additionally. The whole problem is resolved by using spaces for both alignment and indentation. But in the cursor would still jump one space at a time rather than the whole tab ( although there are keyboard shortcuts for jumping words which would jump all of em.
I don’t know. Call me old fashioned. I like what I like :/
If I correctly understand what you are saying, you are describing “relative” tabbing, where /t moves a constant distance from the current position. I prefer “stopped” tabs where /t moves to the next tab stop. If my /t doesn’t create the spacing/alignment I’m after, I just tab to the next position.
Thus, I would set mine with the first tab position (for indenting) at 1.5 cm and subsequent tab stops at 3, 4, 5, … cm. That way I’d get perfect alignment with both fixed and proportional fonts.
I’d also set line-wrap or line-continuation to use a hanging indent based on the start position of the line being wrapped or continued.
I’d also set a boundary between code and comments so that lines always wrapped before the boundary and using the comment character at the end of a line would jump to the other side of the boundary with optional leaders (the characters, usually periods that connect the end/beginning of a gap). In an ideal world, I would be able to “hide code”, pulling all the inline comments into a “hanging indent” structure with their “parent” comments.
Yes, before the advent of IDE editors and all the fancy intellisense stuff, I used word-processing software for coding. 😀
If I correctly understand what you are saying
You did not, but he also picked an example that could be conflated with the 4-spaces issue.
They’re talking about situations where you might want to align text by a number of spaces that isn’t divisible by your tab size. I’ll expand on their example:
function test(&obj, &obj2, &a) { $obj->doSomething() ....->doSomethingElse() $obj2->doSomething() .....->doSomethingElse() $a->doSomething() ..->doSomethingElse() }Again, dots are “visible spaces” in this example, and being used to align chained methods with the length of the object name.
Edit: Bear with me while I sort out the difference between my display and the resulting code block. Ok, close enough.
Ok, thanks. I would instead (and prefer to ) do something like this:
function test(&obj, &obj2, &a) { $obj---->doSomething() ---->--->doSomethingElse() $obj2--->doSomething() ---->--->doSomethingElse() $a-->--->doSomething() ---->--->doSomethingElse() }In this case, the “>” are showing the tab stops and the “-” the resulting white space. Note how all the calls are lined up. (My preferred alignment style, not necessarily anyone else’s.)
Yet another edit: I see that I missed addressing alignment on other than tab boundaries. To me, that’s just sinful! 😀
Correct. The way I’m used to it ( and how I thought the world worked ) is that the IDE gives tab a fixed length or characters. If you set it to 4 it would be the equivalent of 4 spaces or 4 letters or whatever.
If my tab is set to 4 it would take up the width of 4 characters. If I need two indentations I would press tab twice.
If bob then checks out my code and calls me a maniac and sociopath for using indentation and swears by “2”, the code would just look more condensed. The alignment would still work out because that’s done through spaces.
var user_name = "Bob" var user_age[tab]= "Bob"This would align the
=for Bob, because it needs two characters to align and that’s what his tab width is. It wouldn’t align for me because my tab width is 4. So I would.pur two spaces instead of the . That way it is aligned for everybody regardless of their tab width settings.The way you explain it sounds like how tabs works in MS Word ( or other word processors ).
I don’t think I could work like that. I’ve only ever used IDEs to code ( regardless of how primitive they were back when I started). Interesting take though :D
The way you explain it sounds like how tabs works in MS Word ( or other word processors ).
That is exactly how they work, and after 40 years, I still struggle with the whole “tab as a shortcut for spaces” thing. It’s not that I started with word processors, either, just that as soon I started working with them, everything got so much easier for me.
There are some code-specific things that keep me from just going back to a word processor, but I think our code editors are missing some useful features that are found in word processors.
Generally I’m not very preoccupied with it as the IDE just formats it the way I like it on save :D.
The fact that you had to explain this is the reason why tabs are inferior in practice. People just don’t get it and then in collaborative projects you get a completely misaligned mess because not everyone has the same tab size.
Yeah, I understood the arguments against using tabs for alignment, but never really got the argument against using them for indentation.
I can’t imagine it would be difficult for an IDE to scale the width of spaces found at the start of a line, to emulate this same customization while still preserving my sanity as a fervent space-indenter. I’ve never seen an IDE that does this, but it’d be an interesting compromise.
What if instead of having the IDE special case space characters at the start of a line, we had a special character that could represent a variable width space?
What if we did that, and then wanted to align something?
Then you use the variable width space for code indentation, then, when you’re at the code indentation level, you’d switch to spaces for alignment. If the IDE special cased all space characters at the start of the line you wouldn’t have that flexibility. You could also easily create a linter that ensured that the variable width space always has the correct indentation level, and ignore the standard space characters after it.
You’re entirely correct. Plus, I hate the idea of changing the width of spaces for any reason lol.
It’s not difficult at all, and many editors and IDEs already support this, making the entire point moot. Just do whatever the style guide says. I’m into PHP and Python so for me it’s spaces all the way.
How can it tell the difference between spaces used for indentation and spaces used for alignment, if you use the same character for both?
I guess the indention sizer thing knows how the formater works and adjusts accordingly. I can’t imagine it would be too much of a problem.
Iirc Jetbrain IDEs has a feature called dynamic tabs/space (or something like that) which uses exclusively tabs until it needs to align something and a tab doesn’t fit, so it uses a few spaces instead.
All parsers ignore a shitload of whitespace already. Just compare unformatted code, COMPLETELY unformatted code, code without character returns, and it’ll become obvious how any given language is interpreted around whitespace.
Also fun to see just how infrequent a semicolon is ‘actually’ needed to tell when the end of a statement is here.
Maybe alignment more for the righthand side of assignments. If you have a block of variables with different name lengths, or within a constructor / function call.
I agree, tabs are better but I have been using spaces for so long I can’t even imagine switching to tabs. also I’d have to reformat all my abandoned projects.
Man how are we gonna write all of our Whitespace programs now?
Yay at least this comment section has majority tab lovers!
The enlightened among us use spaces for indentation and tabs for alignment.
The correct answer is, was and always has been elastic tabstops
Wow this site is hard to read, at least on mobile (haven’t tried on my PC). The line-height is too small.
Any ides have support for this? I feel like I’ve been waiting forever.
Looks like there’s an emacs package for elastic tab stops.
Of-fucking-course there is.
Essentially no. I wish so badly that this had taken off.
Edit: as noted on the website, various plug-ins that attempt support are in fact not correct.
What do you mean? There’s a ton of working plugins listed on the website for many editors.
Sorry, my phrasing was sloppy. Most popular IDEs and editors do not have a plug-in or setting that implements elastic tabstops correctly. In particular, there’s no implementation for vim, emacs, VSCode, eclipse, or any JetBrains IDEs. (I had forgotten that there’s one for Visual Studio and one for Notepad++.)
Hell yeah tabs
Spaces are supiror because its easier to text boxes.
I mean where even is the tab on my phone?
Another person who codes on their phone.
I bow to your greatness.
Sololearn is great for coding on the phone
I actually does code a bit in phone(and only codes in phone) and still preffer tabs. Hate it when some editors auto spaceify it. Also you can have tabs on keyboard by installing abother keyboard app
Right hereEdit: til tabs make code blocks in lemmy
Let’s just avoid indentation at all (jk).
Always remember:
“He’s me.” - Obi Wan Kenobi
Feels relevant
Just make everything Shittier
Team Tab Supremacy Unite!
But like… Correct me if I’m wrong but in my experience tab does not always equal 4 spaces.
That’s why it’s also a big accessibility feature. With big font sizes, four spaces are distracting but you can configure tabs to show up as one character, which is way more reasonable with font sizes larger than usual
I had a colleague that is legally blind in my second real job. The dude is brilliant (and hilarious) but these things would significantly enable or screw up his productivity. I have always felt fortunate to have had direct butt in seat exposure to the importance of accessibility at such a young age.
That’s one of the benefits of using tabs. Some people might like 4 spaces for indentation, whereas others like 2 spaces. If you use tabs, you can configure your editor to use whatever tab size you want, and they’re just stored as tab characters in the file.
Tabs for indentation, spaces for alignment (eg for ASCII art).
You’re misunderstanding. In this case it means “one tab character” instead of “four space characters”.
As a fan of tabs I see this as an absolute win
