I mean that would make sense if Antifa had anything to do with fascism. It’s just one of many movements wearing labels that intentionally misrepresent it’s members.
It’s like being anti-Patriot act and then others claiming that you’re against patriotism.
You’re playing into their hands.
Love this argument.
You wouldn’t know a fascist if it grabbed you by the pussy.
And that’s like saying “If Black Lives Matter were actually black” or something. Antifa isn’t a group, person, or organization…it’s an idea. Much like BLM or Occupy.
The real problem is that the idea ends up losing focus as it gains support, and then it gets spread out too far, and then it dies. Happens nearly every time.
Love this argument.
Me too!
You wouldn’t know a fascist if it grabbed you by the pussy.
You’re correct. I wouldn’t. Because I don’t have one.
Antifa isn’t a group, person, or organization…it’s an idea.
Tell that to it’s supporters.
Much like BLM or Occupy.
Wrong again.
The real problem is that the idea ends up losing focus as it gains support, and then it gets spread out too far, and then it dies. Happens nearly every time.
Well unfortunately this one persists.
Tell that to it’s supporters.
Okay, find me one.
Antifascism is an idea. There are groups centered around said idea, but “big antifa” isn’t a thing.
Being anti-antifascism is pro-fascism.
BLM and Occipy aren’t organizations. There is a BLM organization. But that’s like if I created an organization called Feminism. That wouldn’t make Feminism an organization. That just means there’s an organization based on the movement.
Feel free to take a seat.
I think you are mistaking infiltration for ‘getting spread out too far’.
Nearly all of what you describe can be most easily attributed to planted agitators.
The difference between the extreme wings is miniscule. Methods, Objectives and Goals are the same, just the arguments differ slightly.
In Germany half of the voters of the Ultra-Left Party “Linkspartei” went within one election to the Ultra-Right Party “Alternative für Deutschland”. Even starnger, the AfD is financed by Putin who wants to recreate Stalinism, which is Ultra-Leftist, while the AfD wants to recreate a Führer-Cult which is Ultra-Right. And still both cooperate perfectly.
People need to understand that the Extremists on the wings are closer to each other than to the middle. While the middle tries to better things in small steps the Extremists want to burn the house down with everyone inside and then see who survives.
Extreme wings sounds like a crispy chicken dish
Sorry, but this is just horseshoe-theory Enlightened Centrist nonsense.
Methods? No. The far-right relies on terror, fear, and explicit power structures such as a police state to maintain power. Leftists oppose such structures, even on the ultra-left.
Objectives? Absolutely not. Right-wingers seek to maintain Capitalism, the far-right seeks to implement fascism as a reactionary protection of Capitalist hierarchy, complete with racial and gender hierarchy. The extreme left, ie Anarchists and Communists, seek a Stateless, Classless, Moneyless society based on horizontal power structures. Completely different.
Goals? Same as objectives.
Horseshoe theory is absolute nonsense, and is used to protect the status quo even if the status quo must be radically changed.
Stalin and Pol Pot and Saddam used mostly the same methods as Hitler and as Pinochet and just like the Taliban.
They wanted total power to reform the society to their day dreams. There is not much difference if you call your Economy Plan “Five Year Plan” or “Maximale Kriegswirtschaft”. In the end everyone gets under the foot of the Big Brother, the Grosser Führer, вождь woschd (Yes, Stalin let himself call Führer as did several other Extremist leaders).
We need to learn that the Extremists are much further away from the middle than the parties of the middle to each other. But also the Extremists are much closer to themselves.
Even Trump and Putin show a lot of those methods and while Trump dreams of US Fascism and Putin dreams of Reviving Stalinism their Objectives are just the same: Total power for themselfes.
Oh, I hear you already screaming “But they weren’t Socialists/Fascists” - well, they were part of the Socialist International, they called themselves Socialists and people travelled there to see Socialism. “If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.”
The Way less extreme people defend themselves from the more extreme people is just “But they weren’t true right/left wing. They were something else!” - Boy, I am so tired of it. If 99% if your ventures into Extremism always end the same then I see a pattern that the results will ALWAYS be the same.
And seeing how easily East Germans nowadays change from Ultra-Left to Ultra-Right and visa versa I say: Proof by Observation in the Wild.
I am not even talking about the US where 90% of the people simply don’t even understand what left, right, middle, liberal and Extremism means. When giving a kid free health care is socialism and people think free voting is disrespectable liberalism.
This is even more bullshit, lmao. The only leftist you listed was Stalin, every single one of the others is a far-right fascist that oversaw a Capitalist economy. That includes Putin, who is reactionary. Even then, many call Stalin red-fash, and they aren’t entirely wrong either.
Additionally, if you think reactionary changes after states fall is because the far left and far right are similar, then again, you don’t understand historical trends or movements. These are reactionary movements to a large-scale failure.
Again, this is nothing but horse-shoe theory nonsense, it’s equivalent to astrology in validity but far more dangerous politically.
Here’s a quick example: which is better, an extreme antiracist, or an extreme racist? In your eyes, both are equally bad. Radicalism is not bad alone, neither is extremism. Each view must be judged on a case by case basis.
Whenever a Left-Extremist does something stupid his buddies just claim “Well, he wasn’t Left anyway. Lets just pretend he was a Nazi instead, haha.”
Brilliant. But easy to see through.
The Right-Extremist takes peoples property and life because they are the wrong race. The Left-Extremists takes peples property without reason and life because we wasn’t left enough.
It would be amazing if you could say something coherent about the left without making shit up, lmao
Feel free to quote and analyse any mistakes I made in detail.
And if you can’t: Then you are lying.
The bit about the left taking peoples property for no reason and fighting people for not being left of them screams “strawman with no actual points against leftism” to me. You’ve got this whole “Enlightened Centrist” thing going on that just proves you don’t actually want to analyze things and instead just fence-sit because the status quo benefits you.
I don’t think Lemmy is ready to hear that kind of thing.
Never compare me to a German again
Someone mentioned antifa at work the other day, and I said, “Antifa? I’m in. Shitting on fascists has been an American pass time for a century or better.”
The looks of shock and horror on my coworkers faces was quite the sight to behold.
Well, I can tell you, in Europe Extremist Voters switch without thinking twice between far left and far right.
Methods, Objectives and Goals are the same, just the arguments differ slightly.
Both hate the West, especially the US and Israel, both hate the way we live but without offering a better way. Both want to burn down the house just to see who survives. Only the Arguments differ, the left hate the people running their own society, the right hate the people running other society.
And always remember, Hitler was a National-SOCIALIST.
The “Socialist” in the NSDAP is only a honeypot so they could claim ground and voters who leaned socialist without much thought (“I’m a mill worker like my father before me, we have always voted socialist. Buuut that National-Thing sounds nice”). Same with the “A” which stands for “Arbeiter” (Workers).
There’s the same with the conservative party (CDU = Christdemokratische Union, Christ-Democratic Union) today. Lots of old people say “I’m a christian and that party has a C for ‘Christianity’ in its name.” In fact, their regional party in Bavaria, the CSU is more conservative. And you have three guesses what their “S” is for.
You work with fascists then?
Ignorami. They’ve been propagandized into hating anti-fascists, that’s why they shortened it to antifa.
Removed by mod
Isn’t this the asian guy who doesn’t understand that white supremacists only like white people and claimed to be suing the CEO of Antifa for damages that never actually happened?
“the CEO of Antifa” lmao
I’m guessing that means this is also the dude who claimed people threw cement at him, when it was a milk shake.
Then they claimed the milkshake had cement in it, so people pointed out things like sugar would keep cement from hardening.
Then the cops said they had no reason to assume it was concrete, and no one suggested it was, despite them and the guy being the ones who said it was concrete.
Eyup, that’s the guy. It was also around the time others on the right claimed that people were pouring gasoline into bags in order to make “Makeshift Molotv Cocktails”
When
- the whole point of a Molotov Cocktail is that it’s a makeshift weapon that the proletariat will always have access to as it’s just alcohol and fire
B) A plastic bag wouldn’t make for a good molotov cocktail as it would just fucking disintegrate and couldn’t be thrown that far of a distance, if any at all
Also, the cloth hanging over on to the side of the bag could melt the plastic, and then catch fire
Or it might just not break and spread
I get the point of misinformation isn’t that it needs to make sense, but some times I hear this stuff and wonder fucking why? At least try.
It just needs to be simple and easy to repeat, in as few words as possible.
I thought this was Asian Elon Musk
Well, only classically
I get a strong taste of sick everytime I hear someone say “math” in singular/American-English.
I know it’s simplified English but it sounds so fucking lazy and stupid.
Mathematics isn’t plural. One mathematic, two mathematics?..
You obviously know nothing about linguistics.
Antifa = antifascist like The Democratic Republic of North Korea is democratic.
Flip again.
Nah you wrong lil cuz
I am against fascism, therefore I am antifa. Didn’t have to join a special group with any special tenets. It’s just 1+1=2.
Nope. Antifascism is antifascism.
You’re an AnCap, so it’s not surprising that you’re a fan of redefining established words so you can LARP.
Why do you say that?
I’ve asked before, responses are like, “look at this video of antifas yelling at a guy! That’s fascism.” But that’s simply not correct.
How fucking dumb are you?
Antifa is facist.
Atifa opinion: my opinion is right no matter what Facist opinion: my opinion is right no matter what
Youre right about one thing; the opinions of a fascist is worth less than worm shit
👌
Antifa is antifascist.
Antifa opinion: fascism is bad and must be opposed at every opportunity.
Fascist opinion: extreme Nationalism, the state and the populace must be as one living organism, the enemy must be powerful enough to unite against and weak enough to feel superior, extreme statist Capitalism must take place, all rights and freedoms must be curbed in the name of an almighty state, and the state is absolute.
These do not match up in any way.
You can be anti something without supporting its polar opposite
I hate people that are against fascism
…Totally not a fascist though
If you are against people who are against fascists, wouldn’t that indirectly say you don’t care about fascism? And that’s how fascism gets a foothold. And with that logic, you indirectly support fascism.
Are you against fascism? Then you are antifa. It’s not a special group, it’s a movement.
Well yeah Andy Ngo does literally hang out with fascists so that’s a given lol
It was so frustrating watching some people treat him like he was anything close to a real journalist. He’s just the designated propagandist.
Real fascist are anti-antifa ? 🧐
There are two separate equations. The third panel shows the negatives cancelling.
Anti-antifa only means you’re against the people claiming to be anti-fascist. It doesn’t mean you like fascism. Nor does being antifa mean everything you’re against is fascism.
I think it should be noted, the difference between antifa the organization and antifa the philosophy.
I am very much ideologically anti-fascist and I believe I would take up arms against a fascist government, however antifa the org has made some questionable calls in the past.
There is no overarching antifa organization though. Try looking for a website/forum/etc of antifa. There are websites for random local activist groups which call themselves <city name> antifa, but there is no leader or comittee overseeing these groups. There is no process to join antifa, any activist group or individual can call themselves antifa.
So there are no calls made by antifa, good or bad. There are only calls made by individuals or local groups that call themselves antifa.
Fair. I think you can understand them as a group still, similarly to how you can see anonymous as a group.
I don’t think I’m educated enough to say anything against the group as a whole, as I haven’t sat down to do a lot of research on them (I’m realizing now that my comment was made from a BS bias that I had picked up from when I was a conservative).
however I don’t think the logic of the source meme on it’s own shows someone as fascist just because they oppose the antifa orginization.
(I’m realizing now that my comment was made from a BS bias that I had picked up from when I was a conservative).
Damn that’s refreshing to read.
I do agree that someone isn’t a fascist if they disagree with antifa. I was just talking about the part where you talked about antifa the organization.
I don’t think I’m educated enough to say anything against the group as a whole, as I haven’t sat down to do a lot of research on them (I’m realizing now that my comment was made from a BS bias that I had picked up from when I was a conservative).
You should do more research :)
Unless you’re talking about this one, referring to “the antifa organization” makes as little sense as saying “the conservative organization”. There are many organizations with variously overlapping goals and strategies for achieving them, but there hasn’t been a singular “antifa organization” since 1933.
Where is “antifa the organization” headquartered?
this is the kind of black and white thinking lemmy does best.
You’re not pro-fascist, you’re just against people trying to stop the fascists. Thank god for nuance.
i hate fascists with a passion, but i might not agree with how antifa acts. i do not have any experience with the group itself, i might even agree with them.
for example, i do not like how the last generation glued themselves to streets. that doesn’t make me a climate denier, does it?
Might not agree with how antifa acts
I have no experience
^^^ this pattern shows up right before you make a poorly thought out comment. If you don’t have experience with something I’d expect your comment to be a question for someone who has.
Is a burning car really worse than fucking over the next 15 generations and the planet
How does burning a car improve anything? By what logic does not burning a car equal to “fucking over the next 15 generations”?
Misdirected rage, even if it’s initially for a good reason, doesn’t help anything. If there’s a house on fire, you pour water on that house, not one two streets over. You do the latter, you end up with two destroyed houses: one burned, the other flooded.Can’t talk, has leather in his mouth
but violent protests don’t contribute
There is no alternative to fighting fascists with violence. You can’t have a nice talk with someone who is gunning down Jewish persons. You just shoot them in the face.
Someone supports fascists who want to genocide a group of people? Burning down their car is less than they deserve.
I invite you to learn more about the holocaust. The suffering cannot be put into words. There is no means too drastic to prevent something like it to ever happen again.
let me rephrase. violence not directed at fascists doesn’t contribute.
i was referring to innocent people’s property being destroyed.
if someone arsons a nazi, that’s perfectly reasonable to me.
There is no singular group called “antifa”. It’s a movement of loosely (at best) interconnected but independent, antifascist groups.
Also, we need all these groups. It’s them who usually organize rallies against racism, fascism, antisemitism, inhuman law proposals, et cetera. Also they organize all sorts of other actions against alt right, far right and (neo-)nazis, like disrupting their rallies and standing in the way of goon squads.
Antifa groups are damn important.I’m not pro Hitler, but did they really have to bully the poor man to suicide?
- @KptnAutismus, probably
I’m baffled as to what the point of this comment is, besides waffling about the virtues of not picking sides for not picking sides’ sake.
i have picked the side that’s stopping fascists. but the enemy of my enemy isn’t automatically my friend. i do not respect movents who are known for committing arson and battery regularly.
I see your edit above, i see the comments you posted after said edit, and I’m not sure you now actually got what antifa means. Especially the part about it not being a single, coherent organization doesn’t seem to get to you.
it did. but these smaller, unorganized groups are regularly holding violent protests around my area. and they identify with antifa.
i probably identify with the core values of what it means to be antifascist, but again, i don’t want to be seen as extremist and/or violent.
Yeah, sounds about true. All of the groups in your area are only about violence. Sure, bro.
Its not “the group”.If you look in left and right wing violence in most countries you’ll see a huge disparity, even after the right wing police has significantly biased the statistics. Most people in Antifa groups just go to demos, organize workshops and put political stickers up.
Thats alle the stuff Fox wants to villify, because they want people to be fascists.
There is no organization Antifa. It’s an ideology. So if you are against the ideology of anti fascism, what are you for?
i am against throwing rocks at police and lighting cars on fire in the name of antifascism. you don’t get taken seriously if you’re the one comitting arson.
Never forget the time a bunch of thugs burned officer Chris Dorner alive in a cabin.
Sounds like boot licking, man :(
