The sadder thing is that Chinese social credit hasn’t actually even been implemented, and doesn’t seem like it’s going to. There are only limited local experiments, most of which are allegedly largely irrelevant.
Whereas there are multiple credit score companies currently tracking literally everyone who has a bank account.
It has been implemented, just not at the full scale they originally planned. It started in 2014 and was supposed to be finished by 2020, but has received a lot of pushback and controversies. There are people who are not allowed to fly on a plane, take a train, make a large purchase, or attend certain events in China, that is an undeniable fact.
One of the most well known examples is Xu Xiaodong, a MMA fighter who set out on a journey to expose fake Kung Fu Mystics by challenging them to fights. He relies completely on other individuals to travel, and has to send his videos overseas to be uploaded online because otherwise they get censored by the CCP.
How do you think it came to be that most Americans believe that in China you can have your home seized for being impolite?
A deluge of articles that confirms the audience’s unexamined orientalism, and makes them feel superior.
>implying americans actually want a credit score
I’d like credit scores systems to be fully public and developed by the government. It would be far better than the three private systems Americans deal with now.
Four*. FICO is another one and at one time was most commonly used for home mortgages. Not sure how true that is today, but it’s still very much in use.
The vast majority of Americans (95%) say having a good credit score is important to them, according to the survey.
I have yet to meet a Democrat or Republican who thinks they shouldn’t exist.
The system exists and you can’t really do anything about it. No one wants to be penalized by it.
you can’t really do anything about it.
I mean denouncing the system would be a first step, yes. Like I said I never seen Democrats or Republicans claims this system shouldn’t exist.
I’m a leftist who dislikes capitalism, but I can admit that credit scores were a step up from the way loans were done before. The old way just made it so the banks themselves decided who they wanted to issue a loan to, and that led to a lot of racism and sexism when it came to giving the loans out.
Still, I do think we can come up with a better system than the current credit score system, and I think you have the right idea to point out it’s flaws to start the wheels turning on improving it.
No shit. Going to the hospital is important to me but I wish I didn’t have to do that, too.
your conclusion doesn’t follow from your premise. the ability to live indoors is going to be important to people even if they think the system by which we decide who is allowed to live indoors is kinda shit.
I mean same applies to the Chinese,
but wanting to look good in an oppressive system, does not mean you actually like to be oppressed by said system.Is this stockholm syndrome?
Following rules because you’re afraid of the consequences is extremely different from falling in love with or even desiring the rules.
There’s a difference between wanting to have good credit so that you can benefit from a garbage system and wanting that system to exist in the first place.
Of course it is; that’s the system under which we’re living.
I’m honestly unsure. What is the alternative? Instead of a pre-emptive risk assessment of whether or not you can pay something, more people just receive punishments when they end up not being able to? I don’t like being judged or told what I can or cannot pay back a month from now, but on a large scale doesn’t this mostly protect people from dangerous debts? For the opponents, what is the proposed alternative?
I’m honestly unsure. What is the alternative?
Given that there are plenty of developed countries where credit scores don’t exist (and plenty more where they do but only for businesses), I think alternatives are imaginable. I would know, I live in one such country.
If you want a mortgage here, the bank will:
- Ask you about your current loans and potential past defaults
- Ask you about your current and past income, marital status, employment status, etc.
- Use those variables to pretty straightforwardly determine your loan capacity
- I think do a background check in national databases for defaults/“bad payer” status
- Contractually obligate you to receive your salary on the same account from which they will automatically pull the mortgage. I don’t think this helps reduce actual defaults much, but it probably greatly reduces the financial and administrative overhead of late/missed payments. Also this ties you into the creditor bank which is good for business, IDK how standard that practice is abroad.
The US consumer economy is very highly dependent on short-term/credit debt, and that is absolutely crazy to me. Some Americans say they “need” a credit card to defer payment on some purchases, and as someone raised in culture where debit is king this sounds absolutely insane. Y’all have been propagandized, here it is perfectly normal to not have a single credit line open before shopping for a mortgage and if anything your banker will commend you for it.
For the opponents, what is the proposed alternative?
I’d imagine this is the crux of the problem. Banks need some way to determine if someone will pay back their loans, and what better way than to tabulate their history of doing just that? Should banks be willing to take risks in a system with stuff like the 7 year rule?
If it was about the ability to pay back loans, then why does it go down when I finish paying the loan? Its about your ability to pay as much interest as possible.
Part of your credit score is also the present. It’s more than a bit predatory, but not having any current financial responsibilities looks bad. For example, if you have no loans whatsoever but paid back a bunch in the past, there’s little evidence saying you can currently pay them off. At least, that’s the theory of it.
This. Paid off my house and my excellent credit score dropped by almost 20 points.
on a large scale doesn’t this mostly protect people from dangerous debts?
Not really. It just ends up with lenders offering far more predatory interest rates, which worsens the situation for the debtor. The system is set up in such a way that you can spiral pretty hard with a single misstep.
I’m no fan of credit scores but let’s not act like its the same thing as Chinese social credit
course not credit scores actually exists and social credit does not since it was just a trial
Assuming you are correct it’s still pretty crazy that they even considered anything even close to that.
Meanwhile insurance scores in the US gather all sorts of opaque behavioral data via data brokers. And the IMF even thinks you’re browser history should influence your credit score.
Maybe, I don’t live there. But a social score is absolutely insane.
China is having some of the same wages/productivity split problems that the us has and there’s a vein of thought that says it’s fixable with social incentive programs.
This isn’t 1984 evil authoritarian tankie shit, its liberal reform shit.
And as another reply to you mentioned, a lot of the “social” factors are reported to the big 3 credit reporting agencies through denials based on giant weird datasets anyway, so the “normal” credit score is a “social” credit score in disguise.
Incorrect, the Social Credit system was started in 2014 and intended to operate at full scale before 2020 but it’s still not there, yet. It’s been in use for over a decade, just not as much as the CCP wants it to be.
What’s that? You don’t think you should have a score that keeps track of everyone’s mundane behaviors and ranks them? But what if I want to cross the street between crosswalks, or need to spit, or feel like criticizing the government? Anybody who does those things should be banned from even buying groceries, or having children. Maybe we should send the death van.
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Do you think I made any of that up?
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Finally! It’s just too bad my insurance score is still too low for me to get the required homeowner’s insurance. It’s ok though, cause at least I’m still free to tip my landlord!
But remember. You’re paying his mortgage and you can’t deduct that from your taxes but he can deduct his mortgage from his taxes (the same mortgage that you paid)
You can only deduct taxes paid on your mortgage. Not the actual mortgage. Not sure why i keep seeing this and piece of misinformation everywhere.
Oh yeah? https://www.irs.gov/publications/p936
The IRS says you can deduct the interest on your mortgage but I can’t deduct when the rent goes up? Mortgages are usually fixed rates that stay about the same always while rent is constantly going up.
Bank pays interest on their income. That interest rate IS their income. Yes double taxing would be bad.
But thanks for proving my point! You cannot deduct your mortgage. You can only deduct specific aspects of it. All of which is not the actual mortgage principal itself. So when you buy a $500k house… even putting 20% down and end up paying $506k in interest over the loans lifetime… Yeah, you’re not paying interest on another companies income. That’s pretty standard. You’re still going to be paying taxes on the 500k principal balance of your mortgage, and property taxes on top of that!
while rent is constantly going up.
Yes because materials to effect repairs on your house/apartment are also going up. Skilled labor costs for effecting those repairs are also going up. Property taxes are going up. Costs to insure properties are going up. HOA costs are going up (If you live in one). Mortgages are NOT the only thing that your landlord has to think about. Nor the only thing that they need in order to break even on the property itself. But you wouldn’t know since you apparently have never owned one before. Lots of people are being priced out of their own OWNED homes due to the above factors. Hell I had to replace the roofing on my patio… A 10x30 square fucking roof. Cost me nearly $6k. That shit would have been like $2-3k a few years ago. If I were to rent that house, I’d need to add $100/mo in order to account for that cost over the next 20 months… Where inevitably something else will break and I’d have to find money for that too. If you want to be pissed that your rent is rising, be pissed at the people currently fucking up the economy and making everything fucking harder. That’s why rent is rising. It’s a pressure on EVERYONE renting properties out to raise so they can all do it safely without worrying about market competition.
Bank pays interest on their income.]
💀
Mortgages are not fixed rates that stay the same always. My home insurance just went up 800% in the last 2 years. That’s part of my mortgage. Taxes also went up by 35%. That’s also part of my mortgage.
Cost of a roof replacement was 10k 6 years ago. Last year I had to take out a loan at 8% to pay 8k. That’s a purchase that has to be amortized in less than 15 years because that’s what insurance company demads.
Had to replace my garage door springs, it cost 640. Same company, same springs as my neighbor who replaced 3 years ago. His cost: 280.
I’m not a landlord but it’s clear your not a homeowner either if you believe prices don’t go up.
Why don’t you blame the real problem here. The Billionaires who are violently repressing our wages so we fight over bullshit.
None of those are “part of your mortgage” They’re things you pay as well as a mortgage.
Yes Insurance is part of my mortgage. It’s called escrow but even if it wasn’t escrow. It is required to have a mortgage and therefore inseparable.
Same thing with the roof as it is required to replace it every 15 years. That is non negotiable. When my roof turned 16 years old - I was unequivocally dropped and unable to find insurance. I went through 7 different brokers.
Regardless they’re all costs that I have to pay because it’s part of the property.
Why do you think I should pay for them and not charge you?
So a mortgage is part of your mortgage? It’s literally not your mortgage, it’s a cost of having a mortgage just like food isn’t healthcare.
Pretty much. Because you’re deducting the interest. You could have also googled this
Ah yes, the actual mortgage value… the principal is definitely covered in the deduction of the interest… The interest definitely isn’t literal income for the bank and they definitely don’t pay taxes on income that they make.
I have good credit but I cannot buy a house.
My husband and I bought ours in 2019, and I feel like we did so in the nick of time, and that’s with being on two programs and taking an additional loan for the down payment, and that’s because paying the mortgage was lower than renting an apartment at the time.
People can’t afford housing anymore. I feel guilty even owning a house because it’s gotten so bad (even though the bank technically owns this shit).
Same. Alternatively, turn that guilt into the drive to attend community meetings.
Yeah I’m pretty involved locally, although action is pretty limited here where I live in South Dakota
Bummer that sounds rough. I’m in New England so it’s mostly nattering neoliberal nimbys 🙄
Oh don’t worry, we’ve got a lot of them here as well. I know a lot of good people too, but everyone is stretched so thin with work and trying to survive.
even though the bank technically owns this shit
Nah, they just have a substantial lien against the property :)
Oh thank god that’s all it is /s
Don’t feel guilty! Congrats on the house. Enjoy it.
Thank you.
Buying a house was what pushed me from Bernie flavored socialist to full on leftist. We were lucky enough to find and qualify for a community land trust and it is such a better system than anything else in America. It should just be how housing is done available to everyone, not just people who qualify.
You need credit and money. Ironic eh?
Well in China you could buy an apartment that should be built in a year but will never actually be built. That’s how you know China is better than America.
k
WOOOW ✋😃🤚
Both systems are horrible
please explain what the horrible part is, be specific
No
The part where it assigns a fucking score to a human being is fucking awful to start. China is an Orwellian shithole.
You sure could’ve avoided making a clown of yourself if you bothered reading the links provided
Contrary to common belief, the cities mainly target companies, not individuals.
Whatever, what would happen to me in China if I went in the street yelling “Xi Jinping can lick my balls”? Cuz that Pooh Bear bitch can straight lick my balls for real.
people would look at you as the imbecile that you are of course
Sure thing comrade. I’ll remember as I’m draping my nuts across Xi’s nose and stamping his forehead with my asshole.
Let’s face it, you can’t even find China on a map. You’re never going to go to China, you don’t give a shit about people living in China. You’re just a racist who thinks he’s being awful clever. It’s sad and pathetic, and everybody can see through it.
The specific problem with both systems is that they are controlled by a central entity. Sounds harmless enough on a first glance. However, this also means that whoever owns/controls this system, can control a lot of people very effectively. This could be used for good but is instead mostly used to keep people in line.
This makes it easy for a single person/small group to control an entire nation, which I think is a bad thing.
Good thing that the system in China is in the hands of the working majority. If you look at how Chinese political system is structured it becomes clear that it’s not in fact in the hands of a small group of people.
Who has access to the back end data, and the ability within it to change any data they want?
Because a group of people with this power exists, whether or not you believe they will act upon it.
The power of the government being premised solely on who has access to the backend data is certainly a novel political theory.
That isn’t at all why the two systems were being criticized, and trying to frame it like that is extremely disingenuous.
Maybe if you actually read the links provided then you’d see that your criticism is vapid in the extreme.
I do not believe that is the case. Mainly because of their questionable choices. Things like their great Firewall, which also censors political topics that the government does not approve or the perseution of certain ethnic groups. I don’t belive a majority of the people would want to do things like that.
Or the covid “quarantine” that had mass protests and went on with roaming squads of police to ensure no one went outside. Sounds like a majority choice lol. That person is spewing chinese propaganda.
Claiming that taking tough measures to arrest the spread of the pandemic instead of letting millions of people die the way west did was a bad decision is the height of psychopathy. You are one sick individual.
You’re putting a lot of words in my mouth my guy. You said the Chinese government is run by the majority workers. I’m giving an example of how the majority wanted something, and the minority said otherwise. Not only said otherwise, but imprisoned anyone that dissented. Like all government, the few control the many.
The “zero covid” policy in china was absolutely insane.
AND, guess what, I was able to argue my point without calling names. Lmao.
There is nothing questionable about those choices. For example, the firewall is the reason why China has its own domestic tech industry while the rest of the world is dominated by a handful of US companies. Meanwhile, censorship of capitalist views is good actually. And the idea that the government prosecutes certain ethnic groups has no actual basis in reality. This notion has been debunked to death but people in the west will keep repeating this because that’s what they want to believe.
You’re seriously defending the treatment of the Uyghurs?
You seriously still peddling this bit pf propaganda?
He’s a Chinese shill. Probably paid.
Everytime I see some chump defending the CCP i make a guess its a .ml account, because only a .ml acc could say this stupid shit
I am yet to be incorrect
wow what an insightful critique you’ve mustered there, I guess what you’d expect from a chump who can’t even spell CPC correctly 😂
Does anyone not how to a Bookwyrme review through a Lemmy link ? Anyway : https://books.theunseen.city/book/192913/s/weapons-of-math-destruction
good book!
Excellent. And i could copy entier chapiters under this post and still be relevant.
There’s a key difference: One is based on just your financial history, only on the numbers. The other is based on everything you do all the time, which is way way way more privacy invasive.
with the amount of information sharing between all the large corps, they are likely to be more similar than you think.
But does the corporate data collection factor into your FICO score? Unless there’s some new scary development I’m not aware of, the FICO score is only based on the following: length and number of accounts, revolving utilization, if payments are on time, and the loans you have made (based on the size and frequency of them).
Don’t give them any ideas.
FICO is just one of a multitude of scoring systems which impact people’s lives in the US today.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_credit_scoring_systems_in_the_United_States
You and your friends’ social media activity, among numerous other things, can absolutely affect your ability to get a loan, a job, a rental contract, etc.
If that holds true, then it really is no better than China’s social credit system. Somebody needs to regulate this monster before it eats us all.
When you’re rejected for a loan by a bank in the USA you’re entitled by law to know the reason. If your credit is good, your job is stable, and you’ve got no history of finance-related crime then you won’t be denied a loan. If you’re denied a loan because of the type of porn you browsed or some shit you said on Twitter, then that’s grounds for a discrimination lawsuit.
When you get your credit report, there is a statistical breakdown of your score and all of the sources on the report. So, if there is something as stupid as a social media adjustment, you can contest that.
Tell me you didn’t click either link in my comment without telling me you didn’t click either link
I wouldn’t click that link in a thousand years, you rube.
Why not? The two links are to wikipedia and an article in a prestigious university’s newspaper.
Another key difference is one is aimed at executives and businesses and the other is aimed at everyone
We tried personally evaluating people for loans on their individual merits, and shocker, there was rampant racism and sexism. Having strict metrics, instead of relying on the whims of a dickwad loan agent, is a good thing.
The new system isn’t perfect, and yeah, it completely favors people who have parents who know how the system works. But at least it’s not explicitly racist or sexist (again, there are of course systemic issues that feed into it).
I get that it’s frustrating to, for example, need to have debt in order to qualify for more debt. But in other contexts this is pretty standard — it’s essentially “financial experience.”
But yeah. It sucks that you should pay expenses with a credit card rather than debit in the USA. Personally it doesn’t matter to me (I pay them off every month), but it sucks for merchants who get stuck with the credit card transaction fees.
The rise of check cards and normalizing paying for everything on plastic was a big tipping point. There’s even a Monopoly game that uses electronic cards these days. It lets activity tracking run rampant and of course the banks get to skim a fee off everything.
Franky I see it as having nothing to do with fiscal responsibility (can’t overspend the cash on hand) and more just a way to funnel more to those with means than anything. It’s funny how cash advances on cards charge a higher rate than purchases despite neither offering a security interest to the card issuer.
You can live without a credit score, even get a mortgage. It’s not exactly easy, but it’s not that difficult. Once you have a mortgage, you have a good credit score.
I got rejected just last week for something pretty inexpensive that I can afford to pay off in installments. My credit score is good and I’ve never defaulted on any payments before. I live in the UK, not in China.
AFAIK the social credit system that westerners like to mock was only trialled and never implemented. I, on the other hand, have actually been screwed over by my own country’s credit score system.
In the US, I think you would be entitled by law to the reason who were rejected ( https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_Credit_Opportunity_Act ).
Does the UK have something similar?
Incorrect, the Social Credit System started in 2014 and was supposed to be operating at full scale in 2020 but they keep missing deadlines. It is in use, has been for a decade, just not as much as the CCP wanted it to be.
