I am so tired of the whole “cool pope” thing with Francis. It’s 100% PR.
Wouldn’t depriving someone of their right to their preferred identity be considered a threat to human dignity?
It’s not their “preferred identity.” It’s their identity.
They are not their “preferred pronouns.” They are their pronouns.
It’s not their “chosen name.” It’s their name.
They don’t “identify as.” They are.
(I know you’re an ally, just wanted to point these things out for all the allies to use slightly better wording.)
I know that I’m 9 days late but thank you for the tip.
The Vatican said Pope Francis had approved the document, which also reaffirms its condemnation of surrogacy, saying the practice represents “a grave violation of the dignity of the woman and the child”.
“A child is always a gift and never the basis of a commercial contract,” the document says. “Every human life, beginning with that of the unborn child in its mother’s womb, cannot be suppressed, nor become an object of commodity.”
The ethical problems with surrogacy are real, but they’re not about the child. They’re about income inequality and putting adult women through a physically traumatic, dangerous, and possibly life-changing experience for money. If we were able to use artificial wombs for “surrogacy” (I know, it’s technically not the same thing), I think people would see it as nothing but a new type of fertility medicine.
My cousin did it because she wanted to help someone have a child. She didn’t do it for the money. When it’s a financial transaction, I see the issue.
It also helps LBGT couples who can’t have children get them. I don’t see an issue even if there is money involved if it is clearly not coerced.
The issue is ensuring its clearly not coerced, which is effectively impossible in practice. Unfortunately it’s one of those things where once you allow people to be paid for it, it’s gets really, really dark, really, really quickly.
I don’t think it’s impossible at all. If the surrogate knows the person or people who want the child personally, it’s almost certainly not coerced even if money changes hands.
Im not sure I can be so confident just because the surrogate knows the couple. If anything that would make me more worried about coercion. That could easily add MORE pressure for a surrogate to take on the pregnancy if that surrogate knows how important it is to the couple.
My coworker had to use a surrogate to have a kid because of her infertility issues. I promise you, there was no coercion. When you regulate things it’s much easier to ensure everyone is consenting. The problems happen when you ban shit and drive it underground.
That’s amazing, I’m glad your coworker was able to find someone and get to be a parent.
I’m sorry if I came across as advocating against surrogacy. I don’t nearly know enough to have that strong of an opinion on it in either direction. All I wanted to get across was that making sure there’s no coercion is hard. Not impossible, but hard. There were some really sweeping statements under this post that felt like they were oversimplifications and I wanted to consider the nuance.
I don’t know how I feel about it overall (surrogacy, not gay people getting to have children, that’s beautiful), but it’s hard to be confident there’s no coercion when money is involved. The money itself can be coercive especially if the surrogate is particularly in need of the money. I’m not sure it can always be “clear” it’s not coerced.
In the U.S., where medical care is expensive, I think money to cover that should be expected.
Absolutely! And more to cover other expenses like maternity clothing, any comfort items to manage the pregnancy, additional dietary needs, and probably some more to help account for how traumatic a pregnancy can be and the body changes it causes.
I’m absolutely not advocating that a surrogate shouldn’t get paid. Just that it’s hard to separate payment from coercion in even the best situations.
How about you work on your age-of-concent-fluidity problems first.
Then there’s spreading HIV in Africa (and other parts of the world) by preaching against using condoms. How many millions have died of AIDS because the Catholic church told them or their partner not to wear a condom?
Tbh the problem is not not wearing condoms, is allowing the virus to still exist. I say we need some purge by fire to get rid of that dangerous virus. /S just in case
Who the fuck do these Vatican people think they are, to lecture others on morality? The previous pope instructed all of Catholosism that they were not to report pedophile priests to the police on pain of excommunication. And this is apparently fine by the current pope.
They are a bunch of idiots with no coherent concept of morality. All morality is based on personal responsibility, but most Christians seem to think they can ask their imaginary friend - rather than the one they have wronged - for forgiveness, and be granted it! It is absolutely absurd. I’m not saying that Christians in general are bad people, I’m just saying we shouldn’t be looking towards Christianity or any of its leaders for moral guidance.
Incidentally - do you know which World War 2 nazis were excommunicated for their crimes by the Catholic church? You’d probably be surprised to know that it was only one. One! And who was it? It was Joseph Goebbels. Among all the heinous crimes commited by the nazis, what was it that Goebbels specifically did that caused the Catholic church to say “enough is enough”? I’ll tell you what he did: He married a divorced protestant. “That’s it,” the Catholic church said, “you no longer get to go to heaven with your fellow nazi war criminals. Killing 13 million people in the Holocaust alone we can live with, but marrying a divorced protestant? No, we can’t have that, that would be, like, totally immoral dude.”
But surely, I hear you say, the Catholic church was against the nazis? No. No, they were not. Hitler’s birthday was celebrated in German Catholic churces all throughout the war. Only in 1960’s did the Catholic church apologize for its silence during the Holocaust, and revert the hitherto established doctrine that all currently living Jews - including children - are personally responsible for killing Jesus. That’s why they didn’t oppose the Holocaust - because the Jews (never mind that they weren’t the only victims) had it coming, since they were all (some-fucking-how) personally responsible for “killing Jesus”.
So, yeah. I’m not going to let these morons lecture me or anyone else on morality.
Who the fuck do these Vatican people think they are
The most powerful government in the world.
there’s the catholic church that I knew and hated.
I wonder why multiple adults beating the shit out of 6 year old me with yardsticks wasn’t a threat to human dignity.
What didn’t kill you made you stronger
Fuck all the way off trauma has no reward. It took me a long time to grapple with that with my own childhood traumas. I used to think that after going through my own personal Hell, there’d be a Heaven waiting for me, but there wasn’t.
Don’t be like this, it’s so exhausting. Even if you struggle with sarcasm, all you need to do is take half a second to ask yourself if it’s possible it could be a joke. For an obviously flippant comment like this—obvious because it has no other value—you will literally never go wrong interpreting it as a joke. If it is a bit more complex, ask: “Sorry, I just want to confirm, did you mean this sincerely?”
consider that I’ve had to hear this exact phrase in complete earnestness from anyone I’ve ever talked to about my abuse for three and a half decades and that it’s never been anything other than a way for other people to comfort themselves about their involvement and/or lack of involvement
Consider that it is almost certainly a snide comment aimed at the people who would do what you are describing and excuse it with a bullshit phrase like the one in question.
As long as you are thinking strictly in terms of what you have suffered, you are virtually guaranteed to misinterpret the information in front of you.
I am not indifferent to your struggle, but being 50+ and still so easily triggered… that seems miserable. Not saying it’s easy, but when I find myself spontaneously experiencing undesirable emotions, I like to lean into it and try to understand what’s going on.
The past isn’t real, and we get one chance at this. Your story can be what you want. Maybe some pages weren’t great, or maybe the entire book got lost in a house fire - that’s ok.
I hope you find your way through very soon.
Aaaaand…. Human dignity calls the Vatican archaic and obsolete.
