Thank you. Spot on.
I’m also seeing bizarre infiltrations of instances by likely paid teams of saboteurs who know exactly how to deFed the federated.
Hey drama is part of social media, it drives engagement plus we are hashing out this place should work. Also power tripping mods sub is great, solid discussions
it drives engagement
Defenestrate corporate media framing. There are no advertisers to market social media “engagement” to. We are not the product. In fact there is no product, just as there is no customer.
Different type of engagement. Not “how lomg you view ads, click rate, view rate, etc” but just posting and commenting.
Engagement is just “emotional involvement or commitment”, it’s not necessarily “corporate media framing”. Capitalist platforms abuse this for profit (as they do with everything good), hopefully we can use it to create stronger communities.
It attracts new blood. People need to be posting and commenting for a place to have a future.
all i know is sh.itjust.works
From what I’ve seen, a lot of the toxicity is trickling down from the powermods. Same issue migrated from Reddit.
Mods will always be a problem.
I’ve yet to encounter a well adjusted human who voluntarily mods.
I just think it’s neat.
Maybe we need a draft.
My preference is for completely community moderated platform.
People essentially vote for content moderation. Likely susceptible to gamification but I’m still interested in seeing it in practice.
Considering the use of downvote bots already, I don’t see that working any better. But then I don’t have any better ideas.
Probably some of the same powermods doing it
I would bet money that you’re right.
The reason corporate social media sucks is its monopolistic nature. “Instance wars” are why lemmy is better than reddit, which consists of exactly one instance.
Yeah, right. That totally makes Lemmy better. It’s so pleasant to always bicker and threaten to defederate from each other. It’s also so unlike Reddit where Subreddits brigade each other and have sub wars. Lemmy is so unique in that… /s
What we need is a strongman to come along and tell everyone what to do.
I am so out of the loop on this. People care about what instance they are on?
I care it’s not .world
I’d say not in mine. I’d say we are usually peaceful.
Yes! It’s a sad, sad world. It mostly has to do with people’s political opinions on moderators, i.e. “.ml are tankies” and “.world are right-wing normie fascists” or something like that. I have never — literally never — witnessed a .ml mod doing something I thought was bad. I have also seen only one tankie since I joined .ml. I have witnessed some kind of conflict between .world and .ml everytime single time I open Lemmy though. Kind of depressing. I wish we could make less of a deal of an issue that, all things considered, seems pretty small. Ah well, that aside, Lemmy is still great, it will just take time to mature — like all social platforms in their beginnings!
Pretty much the same for me. I’ve seen many posts and comments complaining about those kinds of things from .ml and .world; but close to zero of the actual behaviour that people complain about.
The other day I was on all and ended up reading a comment chain and saw something like “Cuba is a democracy, and for proof just look at the official website of the central party.”
I found it ridiculous to essentially say “Doug is a skilled electrician, for proof look at this note Doug wrote saying he’s a skilled electrician.”
This made me a dirty shitlib (I guess the instance I signed up on makes me a liberal). The reaction seemed intense so I checked and it was .ml, so I assume it’s a rivalry thing.
You’ll see me venting and shitting on eg conservatives but I don’t go around calling people these things. You probably don’t either. But clearly there are users categorizing us into labels and associating us with our instances regardless of merit.
You were given the official outline on how Cuban Democracy works. What genuine reason do you have to not trust the structure reported? Further, there were other non-cuban sources listed on that thread. When you were asked what source would count as valid for you, you were silent, but now you’re complaining in an entirely different thread, which is kinda funny.
I’m not complaining, I’m giving you a relevant example of where these labels come from. It’s .ml and .world and I just don’t have any recent memory of this on .world. I’m sure there’s an example or two, just not recent.
I was silent because I wasn’t sure what people were saying. I don’t think people who disagree with what I say are necessarily misinformed, or less intelligent, or mean. So it comes down to how I am certain people (including you) know that what is written on paper and what flows in reality are not 1:1 matches. But they tell me something they wouldn’t accept if they were in my shoes.
Maybe that skepticism sounds ridiculous? But if structure is important and reality can be different and everyone knows this I think it’s odd to see officially meaningless official material in the room. Why can’t we throw it out?
Edit: imagine we’re pointing out that America is controlled by billionaires and someone links the official site saying “No, it’s still three branches and the will of the people.” You toss it immediately.
To speak of the Cuban system, it’s important to recognize that your skepticism almost certainly originates in perceptions formed by Western media. The structure itself is honest, it’s what they literally have. Whether or not this is sufficient, or working well, is a separate argument, but not the one you made. Your argument seemed to be that we can’t even trust the Cuban government to report on its own legal structures, which is as silly as saying going and looking up US legal code could be fake because we don’t trust the US government.
What reasoning did you have to distrust the Cuban government on its own structures? What source would have been better and thus more reliable for you? No source is free from bias, but things like legal structures tend to be fairly straightforward. Now, if I were linking an article where the Cuban government was talking about how its democratic structure is the best in the world, that leans heavily into opinionated territory and the bias shines through more clearly. However, again, we were talking about the literal structure, which is evidently democratic.
I think I’m mixing up your statement of a basic datum, the way Cuba is written to be, with the idea that it’s indicative of what you’ll likely find. Hence, I was skeptical of the utility of using the written system as meaningful to the statement that Cuba was democratic. Like if people are going to talk about that, I assume it’s not a technicality they are referring to, they are talking about real people living in a real country… so what good is the official parties word on how things are operating?
Also didn’t even realize you were the same person from the other thread, didn’t mean to show up here and bother you.
Quick correction: you didn’t bother me, I saw you commenting here about the meme I posted and wanted to set the record straight on my end. I am a different person from the one you initially replied to on this thread, so no worries.
As for Cuba, there is a large variance in what people who think Cuba isn’t democratic actually believe. There are many people who think they don’t even have elections, or are otherwise entirely unfamiliar with the Cuban electoral structure. For these people, looking at what the Cuban government says about its structure is massive, there’s really no reason not to trust their stated legal structure as reality just like there isn’t much reason to think US legal code isn’t reality either.
Once we are aligned on structure, then we can talk about how well the structure performs, or what hang-ups it may or may not have. Once everyone knows at least what the Cuban system is, then we can discuss how it works in practice. Without evidence of the system not working well, though, all that remains as a negative opinion on Cuba is through the lens of a media apparatus under the control of an Imperialist regime that seeks to recolonize Cuba.
Does that make sense? To use your own example, I would trust DPRK legal code to be enforced as it says it is, the effectiveness or net results are what can be debated on.
Starting to really be able to sniff out the AI propaganda bots. It’s not just defending centrism— it’s the LENGTH of their responses.
They’re always a wall o’ text
I’m pretty active with talking to users here and haven’t noticed any AI bots, though I also do the wall of text bit.
Ooh look it’s the “phone a friend” option of calling in reinforcements to overwhelm me & convince me I’m in the wrong, aww! Aren’t you trying your hardest. It’s adorable
…what? I just scrolled the comments for this meme because it got a bunch of traction, and I’m a sucker for that.
0·9 days agoBlahaj.zone ain’t sending their best.
Yea this was confusing lol
Because you always have good takes
❤️
One of the nice things about Lemmy is that people are willing to actually discuss things with multiple sentences and even paragraphs (gasp) rather than it being a fire hose of quips and one-liners.
This is why microblogging is garbage: it structurally only allows hot takes & shitposts.
The microblogging format is truly awful. I’ve seen professors and incredibly smart writers get into childish feuds with each other, because the format almost encourages it by rewarding dunks and gotchas.
Forcing people to try to communicate over text without paragraphs, or any way to make themselves more clear, is not a good system.
Would you care to elaborate?
Edit: Well, to be fair, I could have paragraphed a little more effectively.
Hahaha all you gotta do to get a human is respond to one of their walls & call them out on being an AI. Then they go grab a representative to waltz in & make it seem like they’re not
TheMoreYouKnow.jif
You could at least try to be civil. I am still curious as to what your original reply meant though. Are you calling me centrist? I am communist, how in the world could I simultaneously be centrist? Furthermore, I wasn’t — as far as I’m aware — stating any kind of political opinion with my original reply.
Please, I beg you, elaborate. I would appreciate that a lot more than jumping to conclusions.
Nope, got the type that encourages or demands endless replies with the goal of wasting my time. Seen it tons of times, straight outta the cia playbook. Can’t fool us 😘
I don’t care at all! Greetings from Italy!
I don’t give a fuck. I know .ml and .world don’t get along. I know that people disliked hexbear (they are pretty silent, dunno if they changed policies). I want everyone to be here.
Is there a federation map somewhere so you can see what instances are federated with each other and which are not?
I’d also be interested in knowing that.
Someone answered the comment above with a link, go check it out!
Yes.
https://federation-checker.vercel.app/
This link lets you type in an Instance name and it will tell you what other Instances allow it and which ones block it.
There’s also this site, which gives you more options for filtering, but also seems to throw up errors pretty consistently in my experience.
In terms of figuring out which instances are cool with one another, this site is also quite useful. It’s a web of trust model that a majority of major instances participate in.
It shows which instances endorse one another, with those instances obviously being federated. It also shows how instances choose to describe/tag themselves, which can give you a better understanding of their general vibe. And it also shows which instances are viewed with suspicion, as they are hesitated or censured by other instances.
@Martineski pinging you
There was a good comment by @pjwestin@lemmy.world the other day on an angry anti-.ml post:
Before joining Lemmy: “It really doesn’t matter what instance you join, you’ll be able to see content from all over.”
After joining Lemmy: “So you’ve enlisted in .world, eh? Welcome to the fight, soldier!”
What’s the beef here? I’m out of the loop.
Lemmy.world is very liberal leaning and defederated from the Marxist aligned instances. Lemmy.ml is more broadly federated and has Marxist mods and admins, and more leftist users in general.
That’s it. Some users make it a fight.
It’s our version of sports teams
Would be more fun for it to be soccer or chess or something, lol
Chess boxing it is
Wild, lmao!
I’m pretty progressive leaning and just joined .world because I had no idea what lemmy was and was tired of reddit but I thought it didn’t matter what one you joined since you can see all the other instances correct? Or am I wrong here, like if I go to All it shows pose from all instances? Have been curious why I have seen so much far left as in comrade leftist post so I guess that adds up if .world is where they mainly hang out. But again I still don’t completely understand lemmy but I enjoy it more than reddit
Instances are like islands, with bridges between others. Some instances sever their bridges to other islands so their citizens can’t see any of that content and the other island’s users can’t comment.
Lemmy.world is defederated from instances like Hexbear.net and Lemmygrad.ml, so you can’t see their comment. Hexbear is mostly an Anarchist and Marxist hangout, Lemmygrad is specifically Marxist-Leninist and takes itself a bit more seriously. Your “All” feed doesn’t show anything from them.
Instances also matter because some have great local feeds based on niche interests, that’s part of why I like Hexbear and find it great to browse locally. .world is more of a Reddit replication.
Great explanation thank you!
No problem!
Wait did world defederare from ml after all? I thought it hadn’t. Because people keep complaining about ml and I still see memes.ml and comments from ml users. Or is it one of these things where federation works in ways that are more complex than most of us assume? Is it that the other instances defederated from world? But I’ve seen ml users comment on my comments. Argh federarion is confusing…
Gotcha thanks
there are multiple instances whose domains end in .ml. lemmygrad.ml and lemmy.ml and the ones that i’m aware of.
lemmy.ml is the primary instances where Lemmy was (and is) originally developed from and that’s usually what they’re referring to when they say .ml
very liberal leaning and defederated
For me, “slight liberal leaning” is more appropriate for them
There’s currently about 600 lemmy instances, in many different countries, and those countries each have different laws regarding the protection of speech. Some of it is also just power-tripping mods or left-wing / right-wing censorship.
If this is happening to a community you like, you can always switch to the same community in a different instance. Eventually, the “official” community will have the most subscribers and the community with the censorship problems will wither and die.
If instance A and B block each other, can a user on instance C still see all the posts from B and A?
What worries me is the drop in posts if things fracture.
Instance C is unrelated to A and B blocking each other. Why wouldn’t it be able to see posts from either unless it was also blocked?
Okay but in post A, people from B won’t chime in, and conversely for things posted to B.
I guess instance C can make posts where both people from A and B can chime in. So would people in instance A be able to talk to people in instance B in the instance C’s comment section? Cause A people don’t want to hear from B people.
So we would still see less active posts as interactions would go down.
The users and posts in instance B are invisible to users in instance A. Regardless of if the messages are in instance C
Given your concern. I would recommend joining a instance with as few defederations as possible and blocking instances yourself. You don’t need a admin to determine what you want or need to see with your experience here on lemmy.
Block instances/communities/users yourself and make it how you want. Or not. It’s your lemmy, use it how you wish. Peace.
How might one/I find an instance with very few de-federations? What are examples of such instances. Thanks, and, just as you say, peace.
lemmy.sdf.org is a prime example imo
You’re already on one, to be fair, but the classic is lemm.ee.
Yep. That’s one reason I like the instance I’m on - I can basically see everything, and just block the stuff I don’t want to see.
It would drop some engagement, sure, but either side of the liberal/leftist divide already has enough people to sustain itself.
That’s because they feed off each other: the liberals throw lots of shit at the wall in the hopes of driving up their engagement from their large but inactive user base while the leftists engage on their own; this creates an environment where the tiny subset of the most active liberals are left alone w the leftists and theyre predisposed to hate tankies, hence the drama.
Aren’t liberals and leftists the same thing? Everyone seems to agree that capitalism is bad, the government should provide more social services, our democratic leaders suck (but we should vote for them anyway because republicans are worse), etc.
Honestly Lemmy seems more like a circlejerk than a divide, the only divide I see is how far we need to go to fix/destroy the system. I don’t think I’ve seen a single conservative voice, which is pretty surprising considering Trump apparently won the popular vote, and I’d expect I’d at least see someone from the other side.
Liberalism is the ideological component of Capitalism. It supports things like private property and whatnot, so Capitalist ideologies typically fall under its umbrella.
Leftism is a broad anticapitalist categorization of ideologies like Marxism and Anarchism.
What you describe as “everyone” is the more progressive side of liberalism, but not leftists. Leftists go farther and say that to fix those issues, we need Marxism or Anarchism, generally.
Ideally the network corrects by users moving away from the drama instances so they don’t get randomly cut off.
I’ve no idea if my instance causes any drama or not. And what if it does in the future?
Ideally content is properly cross posted. But no big deal if not.
Hopefully some day people can view “shitposting” “All” and be able to see shitposting communities no matter their instance. (Minus those they defederate of course)
dbzero on top. even after beefing with and being banned from another instance the admins let us stay federated.
dbzer0, lemmy.zip and lemm.ee have all been consistently great.
The propaganda recycling isn’t great, but it’s at the (VERY) least not much worse than reddit, facebook, or legacy media
The propaganda recycling isn’t great
.ml
lol
As an ex-dbzero, it’s a solid choice!
.ml banning the dbzero admin instead of defederating will never not be funny.
“The users are fine, it’s just the admin”
Wasn’t that Hexbear that banned dbzer0? Or was that also Lemmy.ml?
.world, hexbear, and another big one all defederated with dbzer0 since they host a lot of piracy and grey area legal content.
Hexbear is federated with dbzer0, I have no idea why you think otherwise. They banned the admins for being Anticommunist, but left it federated because Hexbear is pro-piracy and there are cool dbzer0 users
Ah my bad, might have gotten my instances mixed around, I thought there were three big instances that defederated with dbzer0
There may have been, but Lemmy.ml is fine with Piracy it seems and Hexbear is explicitly pro-piracy.
I think it’s just lemmy.world, and they actually aren’t defederated from dbzer0, they just blocked the piracy community specifically. I think dbzer0 is pretty much fully federated with all the major servers except for lemmygrad. With .world blocking the piracy community, it only affects their users, dbzer0 users can still participate in any lemmy.world content.
I could be misremembering, but I can see dbzer0 content so I guess both instances came to the same conclusion lmao.
Anyone unironically surprised by this? Lmao
Who could have guessed that trying to bring together people with opposing views would generate so much attrition…
There’s 2 things I can’t abide: intolerant communities and the Dutch.
As a Dutchman representing the Dutch, we fully agree with the statement made.
Obligatory: G E K O L O N I S E E R D
.zip lemmings chillin’
